Dee Gordon

[Mex17]

It's time for another Marlins fire sale, and this time it is Jeter doing the Crazy Eddie routine.

Dee Gordon is rumored to be on the block, and I think that this is who the Mets ought to target. Speed, OBP, stolen bases, Gold Glove caliber defense at second base. Going into his age 30 season in 2018 and locked in for four more years. Put him at the top of the lineup and let him do his thing. Also, having him, Rosario, and Lagares up the middle ought to prevent a lot of runs from being scored against us.

If Flores and Wheeler was able to net Carlos Gomez two years ago, then Flores, Wheeler, and Guillorme should be able to get Gordon now, yes? By adding Guillorme, they might even be able to snag away one of the several "projectable" young outfielders that the Marlins have at the lower end of their top 30 prospects list.

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2017?list=mia

[Guest 41Forever]

Hes coming off a PED suspension. How do his post-PED numbers look?

[Edgy MD]

I think Gordon, or somebody like him, could certainly help the Mets.

Flores, Wheeler, and Guillorme? That sounds real steep.

[Ceetar]

career 4.5% BB rate.

10.5 mil, 13 mil, 13.5 mil contract.

Can I get a hell no? Like, I'd take him if it was a stipulation of the Stanton deal maybe, but as a throw in. I'm not GIVING up anything for what's at best a major league average player.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: career 4.5% BB rate. 10.5 mil, 13 mil, 13.5 mil contract. Can I get a hell no? Like, I'd take him if it was a stipulation of the Stanton deal maybe, but as a throw in. I'm not GIVING up anything for what's at best a major league average player.

Holy crap. I'm about to agree with Ceetar. What the hell is going on?

Yeah, .696 career OPS. .716 last year, .640 the year before. The batting average and speed are nice, but nothing to see here.

[Centerfield]

Meanwhile, Wilmer put up a .795 OPS last year (career .725), and is younger and cheaper.

[Guest d'Kong76]

He's certainly not worth the $50 million he's owed for the next 4 years. Jeter
can keep that headache, thank you.

OE: the last year is a team option, but still

[Lefty Specialist]

Speed is something the Mets are very short of. Gordon doesn't walk, but he doesn't have to lead off if Rosario is the player he's supposed to be. And he stole more bases than the Mets entire team last year.

I can live with Gordon's contract especially if Jeter and the Marlins eat some of it. The Mets could then lock down second base and not have to worry about a bunch of guys who can 'kinda' play second base, like Flores and Rivera and Cabrera and Cecchini and so on.

[Frayed Knot]

Rosario doesn't walk either.

[Edgy MD]

Well, I'm slow to make any definitive determination on Rosario, but yeah, he's certainly not an automatic pencil into the leadoff spot.

Any notions with regard to whether Zach Cosart's giant leap forward this past season makes him attractive? Does Ian Kinsler's giant fart backwards portend the notion that he's finished?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Farting backwards is easy. Guys who can fart forwards are always in demand.

[Ceetar]

If fart's are the criteria, I guess we need Adam Lind?

[tweet:33xt16iv]https://twitter.com/aarongleeman/status/832301527201103872[/tweet:33xt16iv]

[Valadius]

I'll pass.

[Edgy MD]

That Lind article was delightful bit of diversion.

[Guest 41Forever]

Edgy MD wrote: That Lind article was delightful bit of diversion.

That was a deeper analysis than the look into the shots from the grassy knoll. Love the close examination of the kids in the stands. Funny stuff.

[Lefty Specialist]

Ceetar wrote: If fart's are the criteria, I guess we need Adam Lind? [tweet]https://twitter.com/aarongleeman/status/832301527201103872[/tweet]

Omigod, I just giggled for ten minutes.

[smg58]

Fangraphs valued Gordon at $26M this season, so his salary should not be a deterrent. The concern is that when you have a guy whose game revolves so entirely around speed, his value disintegrates quickly once he inevitably loses a step (see Cedeno, Roger). I'd be worried about the third and fourth years, but not to the point of dismissing him entirely.

[metirish]

smg58 wrote: Fangraphs valued Gordon at $26M this season, so his salary should not be a deterrent. The concern is that when you have a guy whose game revolves so entirely around speed, his value disintegrates quickly once he inevitably loses a step (see Cedeno, Roger). I'd be worried about the third and fourth years, but not to the point of dismissing him entirely.

Does this Front Office value speed? ,does Callaway?

[Centerfield]

Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks.

for more money.

[Mex17]

Centerfield wrote: Meanwhile, Wilmer put up a .795 OPS last year (career .725), and is younger and cheaper.

Judging Gordon based upon his OPS is like judging a fish based upon it's ability to ride a bicycle since half of that stat is based upon Slugging Percentage and slugging is not part of Gordon's game.

We also do not know if Flores can play a full season while keeping up that level of production. He had 482 AB's in 2015 as opposed to 336 last year and 307 in 2016, but that came with a .706 OPS compared to the .795 that you mentioned for this year and .788 in 2016. His half year suspension in 2016 notwithstanding, Gordon has been in the lineup consistently starting from 2014 with 600+ ABs every year.

Flores is also a square peg plugged into a round hole defensively at second (or at best he is league average). Gordon already has a GG from 2015 and I would not be surprised if he gets another one this year. Take a look at the range and the hands for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj4ahh2mZT4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMT0-REHqB8

Gordon has a 2.7 WAR from 2017 compared to Flores' .3, which is not insignificant. I'm sure a lot of that also comes from the speed and stolen bases in addition to the defense and hitting for average. Do you think that the speed/stolen bases aspect of his game will be gone when he reaches his age 33 season?

I admit that I may have overstated OBP as a factor. Among qualifiers for second basemen, Gordon ranked 8th in OBP. The guys above him were Altuve, Murphy, LeMahieu, Cesar Hernandez, Lowrie, Dozier, and Panik (Flores did not qualify presumably due to lack of ABs). Assuming that the options for Altuve and Lowrie are picked up, are any of these realistically available in the trade market like Gordon is going to be? If you can make the case that one is going to be, then we can talk about what that player brings to the table over Gordon.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

You're kind of hijacking the fish/bicycle analogy from Irina Dunn, and breaking it. It's circular logic to say you can't judge Gordon based on his not slugging well because he doesn't slug well. Sure I can.

[Ceetar]

Gordon may be 8th in OBP among qualifying 2B, but that's mostly because of empty AVG. He doesn't walk.

In terms of wRC+ as in, RUNS created, weighted for park and what not, he's 32nd among all 2B with at least 200 PA.

He created most of the value with his legs, and a 78% success rate isn't bad, but all it takes is some bad luck, a fraction slower, a nagging injury for that value to be all but negated.

The Mets really need another hitter they can rely on, with SS/1B being rookies, it not being that easy to upgrade catcher or count on either Plawecki or d'Arnaud to be more than me, and the potential for Comforto to miss some time early and/or Nimmo/Lagares not being hitters. Gordon can't hit.

[Mex17]

Edgy MD wrote: You're kind of hijacking the fish/bicycle analogy from Irina Dunn, and breaking it. It's circular logic to say you can't judge Gordon based on his not slugging well because he doesn't slug well. Sure I can.

Do you judge Tom Brady based upon his inability to rush from the pocket the way that Vick used to?

[ashie62]

Ceetar wrote: Centerfield wrote: Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks. for more money.

Yes to Cf and Ceets.

[Edgy MD]

Mex17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: You're kind of hijacking the fish/bicycle analogy from Irina Dunn, and breaking it. It's circular logic to say you can't judge Gordon based on his not slugging well because he doesn't slug well. Sure I can. Do you judge Tom Brady based upon his inability to rush from the pocket the way that Vick used to?

I don't follow football.

[Mex17]

Ceetar wrote: In terms of wRC+ as in, RUNS created, weighted for park and what not, he's 32nd among all 2B with at least 200 PA.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but is there a comparable stat to this one that quantifies outs created or runs prevented?

[smg58]

Centerfield wrote: Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks.

Luis Castillo in his prime was a very good player. Minaya paid for Castillio in his prime when he was clearly past it.

Gordon is still in his prime, but he turns 30 in April and, like I said before, his value will most likely fall off a cliff at some point. The questions are how much value can you get from him in the meantime, and will it be worth the cost to get him. I'm for weighing as many options as I can find, and while he's a flawed option, he's good enough to not simply dismiss.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Man, screw Dee Gordon. We prob don't have the chips, but I'd call the Twins and ask what the price tag is on Brian Dozier.

[Edgy MD]

THAT'S brain thinkin'!