What's a slide rule werth?

[batmagadanleadoff]

[youtube:iot889cp]b1o4iM7ODWQ[/youtube:iot889cp]

There's the play -- at about the 38 second mark. I saw the play live and in replay last night many times and I still don't know what Werth did to incur the interference call. During the game, Gary Cohen said that Werth began his slide after arriving at the bag but to my eyes, the replay does not support Gary's observation. Also, Werth was easily able to touch the bag as he slid through it. So what the hell was that call all about? Werth's slide looked about as routine as any takeout slide I've ever seen in all my life of watching baseball.

The replay umps upheld the call so Werth apparently did something illegal. But I don't see it.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Just sticking this here from 07/07 IGT...

Apparently Nats' GM Mike Rizzo got into a screaming match with the umps in a hallway after the game, complete with security guards intervening. Not surprisingly it was over the slide-rule call. Can't say as how I blame him. Not that I think he's right necessarily but there seems to be no consistency in how and if that rule is applied. Werth slid past the base twice yesterday and Revere did it once but only one of them wound up being called at of course it came in the 9th inning of a tight game. Whether this new rule is being applied by the letter of the law or subject to interpretation seems up in the air and I certainly can't claim to be able to predict it. http://nypost.com/2016/07/08/nats-gm-ump-get-heated-in-shouting-match-after-mets-game/

[Ceetar]

he slid to hit the fielder rather than the base. Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it.

it's only a bona fide slide if

(3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home
plate) after completion of the slide; and



it's really simple. DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER. You may try to get on the bag and if the fielder is there, you can stake your claim, but otherwise DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER.

It's not really a contact sport.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: he slid to hit the fielder rather than the base. Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it.

Isn't a runner allowed to slide into second and hit the bag with his hand?

Ceetar wrote: Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it.

Can't Werth claim that his momentum took him past the bag? Runners commonly overslide the base.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Guest

[Guest themetfairy]

Batmags - it's good seeing you back!

[Frayed Knot]

I agree that he started the slide legally, the call must have been made because he didn't end it within the new rules because he made contact with Walker while over-sliding the bag.
Credit to Walker & Cabrera as they picked up on it immediately. Now maybe they were just begging but it might have helped sell the call.

This rule is shaping up a lot like the plate rule did when it was new a couple of years ago in that no one seems to know exactly how literally to apply the new standards (remember catchers being called for 'blocking the plate' when the runner was still 35 feet away?) and, as such, I don't blame Rizzo for blowing his stack even if he's blowing it in the wrong direction (go to the league, not the umps).

Basically the rule says:
- you have to start your slide before the base, something Werth did where Utley clearly did not.
- the runner can not 'alter his path' to go after the fielder, something that's subject to all kinds of interpretation
- and that the runner has to 'try to maintain' contact with the base, another subjective concept which can go any number of ways

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: - and that the runner has to 'try to maintain' contact with the base, another subjective concept which can go any number of ways

I think this is to prevent the fielder from bumping him off.

Run at the bag, slide at the bag, reach the bag. stay on the bag.

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Isn't a runner allowed to slide into second and hit the bag with his hand?

as long as he hangs on, which would be tough, because you're supposed to be sliding at the bag and if you're going past it on either side, you probably altered your path to get to the fielder.

[batmagadanleadoff]

themetfairy wrote: Batmags - it's good seeing you back!

You mean "reading" instead of "seeing" but yeah, thanks.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: - and that the runner has to 'try to maintain' contact with the base, another subjective concept which can go any number of ways I think this is to prevent the fielder from bumping him off. Run at the bag, slide at the bag, reach the bag. stay on the bag. batmagadanleadoff wrote: Isn't a runner allowed to slide into second and hit the bag with his hand? as long as he hangs on, which would be tough, because you're supposed to be sliding at the bag and if you're going past it on either side, you probably altered your path to get to the fielder.

I don't think the runner has to hang on the bag. I think he merely has to be able to hang onto the bag.

[Ceetar]

well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag.

Why would Werth want to stay on the bag being that he was forced out? Again, I think the rule only requires that Werth make a slide that would allow him to touch the base should he decide to want to touch the base.

[Ceetar]

no, he has to actively be able to, and try to, touch the bag. he can't alter his path. He can't fling his upper body at a fielder or aim his feet above the knee. He has to be sliding like he's intending to reach the bag and stay on it like he would if he was safe.

[Centerfield]

he slid to hit the fielder rather than the base. Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it. it's only a bona fide slide if (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and it's really simple. DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER. You may try to get on the bag and if the fielder is there, you can stake your claim, but otherwise DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER. It's not really a contact sport.

I can't believe I'm about to type this, but I agree completely with Ceetar. And to be honest, I don't think there is really all that much to interpret.

Here are the key parts:

Under the new Rule 6.01(j), a runner will have to make a "bona fide slide," which is defined as making contact with the ground before reaching the base, being able to and attempting to reach the base with a hand or foot, being able to and attempting to remain on the base at the completion of the slide (except at home plate) and not changing his path for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

That last part is the key. Like Ceetar says, don't try to hit the fielder.

On the play above (and really on the earlier one as well), Jason Werth tried to hit the fielder. There is no question about that. If there were 2 outs when that ground ball was hit, there is absolutely no chance that Jason Werth makes that slide. None. And that's why he's out.

If you showed the slo-motion replay (the one they had on SNY last night was better) to 100 people who have never seen baseball before, and asked them whether he was trying to get to the white square or whether he was trying to get to the other guy, they'd all answer that he was trying to get to the guy.

The way I see it, using the language listed in the rule, Werth did not make a "bona fide" slide for the following reasons:
1. He may or may not have made contact with the ground before reaching the base. It's close. But if it's close, then it's not a bona fide slide. Anyone attempting to reach and stay on the base hits the ground WELL BEFORE reaching the base.
2. He did not attempt to remain on the base at the completion of the slide. That slide was in no way intended to end at the bag. His feet were aimed at Walker. His momentum carried several feet past the bag. Simply reaching back with your hand as an afterthought is not an attempt to stay on the bag. It's as feeble as the guy who reaches for his wallet after the check has been paid and says "Oh I would have paid..."
3. He absolutely, positively changed his path so as to aim his weight and momentum at Walker. No one who is actually trying to get to second base quickly slides that way.

A common complaint heard after the game was "Well then I have no idea how we're supposed to break up a double play then." The simple answer is, you're not. You're not allowed to try to break up a double play. You are only allowed to run to second base and try to get there safely. As Ceetar said, this is not a contact sport.

No more neighborhood play. No more breaking up the double play. I'm good with that.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

It is a tricky rule to interpret, and as often in today's baseball implemented so as to make a show of righting some past wrong instead of actually doing something for the future.

That said the umps have to do their best to interpret the dumb rules they're supposed to uphold, and I'm pleased it went out way. What a great play by Cabrera, btw.

[Centerfield]

well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag. Why would Werth want to stay on the bag being that he was forced out? Again, I think the rule only requires that Werth make a slide that would allow him to touch the base should he decide to want to touch the base.

That is absolutely, positively not what the rule states.

RULE 6.01(j) — SLIDING TO BASES ON DOUBLE PLAY ATTEMPTS

If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner:

(1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base;

(2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot;

(3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and

(4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

A runner who engages in a "bona fide slide" shall not be called for interference under this Rule 6.01, even in cases where the runner makes contact with the fielder as a consequence of a permissible slide. In addition, interference shall not be called where a runner's contact with the fielder was caused by the fielder being positioned in (or moving into) the runner's legal pathway to the base.

Notwithstanding the above, a slide shall not be a "bona fide slide" if a runner engages in a "roll block," or intentionally initiates (or attempts to initiate) contact with the fielder by elevating and kicking his leg above the fielder's knee or throwing his arm or his upper body.

If the umpire determines that the runner violated this Rule 6.01(j), the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter-runner out. Note, however, that if the runner has already been put out then the runner on whom the defense was attempting to make a play shall be declared out.

[Centerfield]

To put it another way, no runner who is trying to avoid making the last out on a force play at second ever overslides the bag by 4 feet like Werth did. This never happens.

He slid feet first, then his momentum carried him so far past the bag that he could not reach back with his back arm to touch second. Jason Werth is over 6 ft tall. With the length of his arm, he can reach back 8 ft. from his feet. He was four feet past the bag, which means that his feet slid 12 feet past the intended target.

[Centerfield]

And I heard yesterday that Dusty Baker complain that there has to be a "common sense" element that if there was no chance at the DP, then interference should not be called.

I don't agree with that at all. Whether or not there is any chance at the DP, the runner should not have made an illegal slide. There may have been no chance to get Murphy, but there was every chance that one of Walker's knee tendons could have been torn.

Fuck Werth. Fuck Dusty. Fuck Rizzo. And fuck the Nationals.

[Fman99]

After watching Tejada get upended last year by Face Buttley, I'm happy for this new rule. If you're that far past the bag you're clearly not trying to get to the base. You're just being an asshole.

[batmagadanleadoff]

RULE 6.01(j) — SLIDING TO BASES ON DOUBLE PLAY ATTEMPTS If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner: (1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base;

(2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot;

(3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and

(4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

See photo just above.

I don't see what portion of the rule Werth violated.

[Centerfield]

All of your stills are not where the play concluded.

Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding.

http://m.mets.mlb.com/news/article/188640580/mets-turn-critical-double-play-on-interference/

Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag.

[Ceetar]

he moved is body so the slide was to the left, towards Cabrera. Cabrera didn't just fall down.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: All of your stills are not where the play concluded. Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding. Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag.

But he's allowed to slide past the bag. And he's allowed to slide three feet wide of the bag so long as he can touch the base with his hand.

[dinosaur jesus]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Centerfield wrote: All of your stills are not where the play concluded. Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding. Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag. But he's allowed to slide past the bag. And he's allowed to slide three feet wide of the bag so long as he can touch the base with his hand.

So long as he can touch it after completion of the slide. Here's where he was at that point. He's not even close to being able to touch it.

[batmagadanleadoff]

dinosaur jesus wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Centerfield wrote: All of your stills are not where the play concluded. Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding. Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag. But he's allowed to slide past the bag. And he's allowed to slide three feet wide of the bag so long as he can touch the base with his hand. So long as he can touch it after completion of the slide. Here's where he was at that point. He's not even close to being able to touch it.

OK. I see it now. Werth's slide carried him too far past the bag for him to even possibly maintain contact with the base, whether by hand or foot.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag. Why would Werth want to stay on the bag being that he was forced out? Again, I think the rule only requires that Werth make a slide that would allow him to touch the base should he decide to want to touch the base. That is absolutely, positively not what the rule states.

I think it does and I disagree with you on this point. Werth didn't have to be on the bag at the end of the play for his slide to be legal. Werth simply had to be able to be in contact with the bag. I think he was called for interference because at the end of his slide he was physically unable to be in contact with the base. I think the rule merely requires the possibility of contact with the bag, not actual real contact. Werth couldn't meet any of those two tests in any event.

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think the rule merely requires the possibility of contact with the bag, not actual real contact. Werth couldn't meet any of those two tests in any event.

This is a technicality. Name me a situation where a guy is able to, and attempts to, touch the bag and doesn't actually contact the bag.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think the rule merely requires the possibility of contact with the bag, not actual real contact. Werth couldn't meet any of those two tests in any event. This is a technicality. Name me a situation where a guy is able to, and attempts to, touch the bag and doesn't actually contact the bag.

The Werth play is a perfect example because Werth, already having been forced out, has no need to maintain actual contact with the base. And since most takeout slides occur where the double play is in play, I'd say that in almost every takeout slide at second base, there's the possibility that the runner attempts to, touch the bag and doesn't actually contact the bag.

[Frayed Knot]

RULE 6.01(j) — SLIDING TO BASES ON DOUBLE PLAY ATTEMPTS If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner:

(1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base; -- the Utley thing

(2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; -- pretty much the same as it always was, although now subject to part 4

(3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; -- this is what tripped up Werth but it's also wide open to interpretation. Neither Werth on his previous slide nor Revere earlier in the same game stayed on the base either so then if becomes a matter of whether the ump thinks they were able to if they cared to try.

(4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. -- this even more so. Is sliding to a particular side of the base depending on which way the runner thinks the fielder is leaning not allowed? How much of a shift constitutes 'changing his pathway'? Shit, initiating contact was always half the purpose in sliding.



Like I said earlier, a lot of this reminds me of the home plate rule when it was first put in. Umps seemed to be calling that one by some strict letter of the law which often bore no resemblance to the intent of the rule or the reasons why it was adopted in the first place.

[Centerfield]

I think you are missing the gist of the rule.

I agree that in nearly every takeout slide there is a possibility that a runner attempts to contact the bag, but is not able to.

The rule is stating you cannot have takeout slides any more.

(Directed at batmags)

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: I think you are missing the gist of the rule. I agree that in nearly every takeout slide there is a possibility that a runner attempts to contact the bag, but is not able to. The rule is stating you cannot have takeout slides any more. (Directed at batmags)

You're just stating the conclusion.