The Knee of Cuddyer

[Edgy MD]

Michael Cuddyer had a terrible game last night, and failed to cross the finish line, exiting following the seventh inning.

While seemingly just another byte of news, this sets in motion dozens of scenarios.

[list:cg4npy6m][*:cg4npy6m]Are we looking at something that flared up yesterday or something he's been playing on for a month?

[/*:m:cg4npy6m]
[*:cg4npy6m]The focus of the prospective trade market instantly shifts from infielders to outfielders. I think this greatly expands the list of potential options.

[/*:m:cg4npy6m]
[*:cg4npy6m]The drum beat to fast-track Comforto (and/or Nimmo) just picked up in tempo.[/*:m:cg4npy6m][/list:u:cg4npy6m]

OK, that's three scenarios, but there are dozens of permutations of the each. Well of the last two. One stall in the Mets plans is it wasn't clear where the soft spot in the lineup was. The Mets were squishy all around (and committed long- (or medium-) term at many of those squishy spots). If Cuddyer is hurt, that gives them license to be aggressive to fill his spot, and if that means playing out the last year and a half of his contract as a part-timer, well, there are worse places to take the hit.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Cuddyer's injury may be a blessing in a very thin disguise. I think the Mets will be better off over the next year and a half if they can transition Cuddyer to a highly paid veteran reserve player. I'm intrigued by the idea of promoting Conforto, but I have no idea if he's ready or not, and I wouldn't want to promote him if he's not ready, or at least close to ready.

I also don't know what Ceciliani would be capable of if he were to play every day. (We may find out.) I don't expect he'll be "the answer" but it's not such a stretch to think that he may be able to provide what Cuddyer has.

[Edgy MD]

I don't think that's a stretch at all, especially with Mayberry as a platonic partner.

But obviously there are more dramatic scenarios to contemplate. WE DON'T WANT TO EQUAL HIS PRODUCTION !!!11!! LOL WE WANT TO IMPROVE ON IT !!!!!11!!! SMHROFL!

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm hoping they go with Conforto for now.

I have little doubt that he's been hurting for a while now, he never really got unstuck. Crazy thing is I also suspect Lagares and Duda are hiding injuries.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm hoping they go with Conforto for now. I have little doubt that he's been hurting for a while now, he never really got unstuck. Crazy thing is I also suspect Lagares and Duda are hiding injuries.

They're not really hidden. We know Duda got hit on the knee and the exit velocity off his bat instantly dropped. We know Lagares had a chest/armpit thing. Both claim to be healed (and Lagares HAS picked it up lately so maybe). Lagares also has the arm/elbow thing.

I can't date Cuddyer's injury, but going back a few weeks he requested a day off Sunday and then needed one again Tuesday. He was supposed to share the 2 DH games in Toronto with Granderson and took both. This past Sunday they played Mayberry Right on Right (and rested Lagares too) instead of putting Cuddyer back out there after the long resumed game.

Cuddyer has all the makings of a guy that will disappear now for three weeks but come back on fire once he's healthy.

[Edgy MD]

LA Dodgers got five productive outfielders. Mets got one.

I'm no fan of trades but I'm trying to see all the angles here.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ceetar wrote: Cuddyer has all the makings of a guy that will disappear now for three weeks but come back on fire once he's healthy.

One thing Cuddy won't do is disappear. He's constantly in front
of a camera and microphone. I have no idea (other than you are
the optimistic of the most optimistic) what you've seen to make you
think he'll come back on fire?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Oh by the way now that we've named Tejada the starting shortstop his game is back in the shitter. 6 for his last 40

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceetar wrote: Cuddyer has all the makings of a guy that will disappear now for three weeks but come back on fire once he's healthy. One thing Cuddy won't do is disappear. He's constantly in front of a camera and microphone. I have no idea (other than you are the optimistic of the most optimistic) what you've seen to make you think he'll come back on fire?

a long long career of being a good hitter coupled with confirmation that at least part of his decline this year is injury related not skills-declining related?

[Lefty Specialist]

No Conforto. He's still adjusting to AA pitching. Simply not ready yet.

There is a guy already on the payroll who has played some outfield.....

[Vic Sage]

Oh by the way now that we've named Tejada the starting shortstop his game is back in the shitter. 6 for his last 40

shocking.

lets see Comforto. He dominated in A ball, and now in AA. He spent his low minor years in college. Lets get him up here.

[Vic Sage]

Lefty Specialist wrote: No Conforto. He's still adjusting to AA pitching. Simply not ready yet.

he's got a .964 OPS in AA over 100 ABs and is going to the all-star game. I wish our current outfielders were so unready.

[Edgy MD]

I have my doubts about whether Conforto's ready, but if he's still adjusting to AA pitching, he's adjusting to the tune of a .333 / .421 / .543 // .964 slash line � his best numbers at any level.

(OE: Vicspeed)

[Ceetar]

I put the odds at roughly 95%, and that's probably low, that Kirk Nieuwenhuis would outperform Conforto at the MLB level during Cuddyer's absence.

But hey, greener grass and all that.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Lefty Specialist wrote: There is a guy already on the payroll who has played some outfield.....

Funny, I just saw on fb that today is his annual pay day.

[Lefty Specialist]

Conforto started out on fire in AA, then went into a slump. They're adjusting to him and he is working on adjusting back. I'd like to see him at least get a few reps at AAA first before throwing him in the fire.

[Edgy MD]

Well, he went 3-5 with a homer last night.

Looking at his game log, if he's cooling off, we should all be so cool.

[ashie62]

Conforto doesn't need AAA.

Bring him up now.

[Frayed Knot]

d'Kong76 wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: There is a guy already on the payroll who has played some outfield..... Funny, I just saw on fb that today is his annual pay day.

Every July 1st different segments of the media "discover" the fact that Bonilla is getting deferred money from the Mets and go about touting this nugget as it's both the funniest thing they've ever heard and a previously unknown item.

[Centerfield]

Fuck Cuddyer. Fuck Tejada.

Call up Conforto and Reynolds. If Reynolds struggles move Wilmer back to short and call up Herrera.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Fuck Cuddyer. Fuck Tejada. Call up Conforto and Reynolds. If Reynolds struggles move Wilmer back to short and call up Herrera.

you know Wilmer sucks too right?

[Centerfield]

And if Conforto struggles shoot Sandy.

No questions asked. Just shoot the smirking fuckface.

The offense he put together is 28th in the league in OPS.

[Frayed Knot]

Got news for you people, every hitter not named Granderson sucks right now! (ironically, only Granderson has a 'He Sucks' thread dedicated directly to him)

[Edgy MD]

Shoot and fuck everybody. SHOOT AND FUCK EVERYBODY!!

[Vic Sage]

in that order? yuck!

[Guest d'Kong76]

Fuck Kevin Long! Or fire him. Or fuck him then fire him.
I'll leave it up to youse.

[Centerfield]

Why aren't we shooting him? Are we out of bullets?

Did we try shooting him but kept missing?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: Shoot and fuck everybody. SHOOT AND FUCK EVERYBODY!!

Vic Sage wrote: in that order? yuck!

I'm struggling to find the right Bill Cosby joke here.

[Guest 86-Dreamer]

[*]The focus of the prospective trade market instantly shifts from infielders to outfielders. I think this greatly expands the list of potential options. Agree - there are many more options in the outfield. here are some names I proposed in another thread yesterday with a little more information on each. No superstars, but all with some history of competence , playing out end of contract on losing teams, an improvement over what Mets have seen (refer to June swoon thread) and likely to cost less to acquire in talent and future commitment than Prado, Zobrist, Tulo, Cargo etc.... David Murphy , Cleveland, 173 PA: .329/.372/.494/ .866/ OPS+138 33yo, signed through 2015 at $6 million per year Ryan Raburn, Cleveland, 126 PA: .300/.381/.536/.917 OPS+152 34yo, signed through 2015 at $2.45 million per year Seth Smith, Seattle, 236 PA, .256/.326/.455/.781/OPS+123 32yo, signed through 2016 at $6.5/year Kelly Johnson, Atlanta, 145 PA, .263/.297/.423/.720 OPS+ 97 33you, signed through 2015 for $1.5m Ichiro (forget I mentioned him, he is shot) Gerardo Parra, Milwakee, 254 PA, .290/.320/.445/.766 OPS+108 28yo, signed through 2015 at 6.24m Will Venable, Padres, 203 PA, .263 / .325 / .409 / .734 OPS+109 32yo, signed through 2015 at 4.25M

Frayed Knot Jul 01 2015 02:42 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Current word is that Cuddyer had an MRI and will miss a couple days, but most likely NOT need to go on the DL. On the Conforto front, Brandon Nimmo is one who is going to have to be added to the 40-man roster prior to the 2016 season anyway so perhaps he, with his 4x the number of AA ABs under his belt as compared to Conforto, would be the more logical call-up if one is needed anytime soon. Confront, drafted two years later, won't be under those constrictions this coming winter.

Edgy MD Jul 01 2015 02:58 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Dreamer, why no Dodgers? Nimmo: There's a reason to call him up sooner, but I'm not thinking it's a slam dunk case, Conforto being older (by nearly four weeks!) and killing it and stuff.

86-Dreamer Jul 02 2015 07:08 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Edgy MD wrote: Dreamer, why no Dodgers? Nimmo: There's a reason to call him up sooner, but I'm not thinking it's a slam dunk case, Conforto being older (by nearly four weeks!) and killing it and stuff. I dream of Dodgers outfielders too. didn't list them though as was focused on guys on losing teams with expiring contracts. Ethier and Puig seem likely to be dealt at some point and would be nice upgrades but I am guessing Mets won't pay the high price in $ or prospects to land them. I am just hoping they'll spend a couple million and some mid-level prospects on a fill-in.

TheOldMole Jul 02 2015 07:24 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

But everyone hates Puig, right?

TheOldMole Jul 02 2015 07:26 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

I have a question. Sandy says he's willing to overpay for the right player. Now, Sandy has been around the business for a while, and is no fool, and even I (who am a fool) know that the only reason you would say that is if you don't really mean it. So what does he really mean?

Ceetar Jul 02 2015 07:27 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

TheOldMole wrote: I have a question. Sandy says he's willing to overpay for the right player. Now, Sandy has been around the business for a while, and is no fool, and even I (who am a fool) know that the only reason you would say that is if you don't really mean it. So what does he really mean? maybe he's saying "Try me."

Benjamin Grimm Jul 02 2015 07:33 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

I wonder if he means he'll overpay in talent or in salary, or both.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 02 2015 08:21 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

TheOldMole wrote: I have a question. Sandy says he's willing to overpay for the right player. Now, Sandy has been around the business for a while, and is no fool, and even I (who am a fool) know that the only reason you would say that is if you don't really mean it. So what does he really mean? My interpretation of that remark is an attempt to diffuse speculation that the reason Sandy hasn't made more trades was that he doesn't make a deal unless he can "win" it. Asks for too much, offers too little.

Edgy MD Jul 02 2015 08:27 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

That's certainly what I've speculated about him. A hard bargainer. I interpreted the comment as Sandy taking the heat off his bosses by suggesting that no trade has yet gone down because he hasn't found the deal to help the team, not because the purses are to tight to take on salary.

Edgy MD Jul 02 2015 08:30 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

It's interesting that independent sources have both the Dodgers and the Cubs interested in Niese. It may satisfy Sandy the market analyst to make a deal with at least the hint of a second team bidding.

Ashie62 Jul 02 2015 09:30 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Sandy may be too committed to Sandy. Paralysis by analysis of sorts.

Edgy MD Jul 02 2015 10:56 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Sandy as A's GM was pretty big on in-season trades.

Rockin' Doc Jul 02 2015 08:50 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

It is hard to believe that Conforto would be any worse ha wha the Mets are currenly fielding on a regular basis. He seems to have earned a shot, given the unproductive masses currently on the Mets. If he comes up and struggles, then he can be sent back down and at least he has some insight in what he needs to do to be successful at the major league level in the future. Regarding Tejada, I believe he has had ample opportunities in the past to show what he could do. I believe he has shown that he is a below average overall for the position. I'm not surprised that he has struggled since becoming the regular shortstop for the team.

Edgy MD Jul 02 2015 09:17 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

There is, however, more than a little wisdom common (if not scientifically verified) in baseball (and other sports � see Freddy Adu) that launching a player on the big leagues prematurely � particularly with the pressure on him to save a team's ship � can be set the player's development back, for the short-term and the long-. I mean, how many recent batters can we name who've been promoted with only 30 games above A-ball? I agree that he can't do any worse than Campbell, and likely can't do any worse than Mayberry. He probably can do worse than Cuddyer. But say he stays for three weeks, having stunk as badly as Campbell, that's probably an awful career turn for the guy. And another problem for the team.

Rockin' Doc Jul 03 2015 05:33 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

You bring up a good and valid point. There is definitely a risk in promoting a prospect to soon. I guess it can depend on the emotional make up and maturity of the prospect. Some people can weather the storm of a poor showing during an early call up and use the experience gained to motivate them to work harder to prepare for the next level; while others have their confidence shattered and are never able to ultimately succeed at the next level. An athlete's psyche and confidence can be a fragile thing at times, but I believe it is talent that most determines an athlete's ultimate success.

Lefty Specialist Jul 03 2015 05:40 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Dilson Herrera is kind of comparable. He'd only had 61 games above A ball when they called him up straight from AA, and while there were bright spots, mostly he struggled. Struggled even more this year (.195). He's only 21 and has plenty of time to develop yet, but you can't help but wonder if he's been derailed a bit.

Edgy MD Jul 03 2015 05:48 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Dilson had the advantage of coming up for a September run with no implication that he was there to save anything or do anything other than take his turns and enjoy the catering.

Ashie62 Jul 03 2015 07:41 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Top Prospects seem to go from AA straight to the majors of late. See Houston and Minnesota. I like it. These prospects don't have to sit in AAA sitting with with largely MLB castoffs. Put Conforto in LF and see if he continues to hit. Its' not like we are married to the promotion.

Edgy MD Jul 03 2015 08:20 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

There's a tremendous amount of precedent going back a long time for top prospects going straight from AA to the majors with little or no time in AAA. What there isn't a lot of precedent for is going straight to the majors with little or no time in AA as well. And 30 games is little time.

Edgy MD Jul 03 2015 09:23 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Houston: Carlos Correja (top five overall prospect) had 29 games in AA and 24 in AAA. Preston Tucker had 125 games in AA and 108 games in AAA. Minnesota: Eddie Rosario had 79 games in AA and 23 games in AAA. Byron Buxton (top five overall prospect) has had 60 games and counting in AA and none as yet in AAA. Miguel Sano (top 15 overall prospect) had 133 games in AA.

Lefty Specialist Jul 03 2015 09:28 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Akeel Morris found this out the hard way.

Ashie62 Jul 03 2015 10:23 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

I am considering Conforto advanced due to his years of the highest level of college baseball. I don't really believe there is harm at giving him a crack.

Edgy MD Jul 06 2015 12:59 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Kind of surprised to see the Mets get out of town without the Niese-Ethier deal going down. Niese and Ethier certainly passed their auditions. And Cuddyer and Bolsinger certainly failed theirs. With Carlos Frias DL-bound, the Dodgies are looking hot to act.

Nymr83 Jul 06 2015 01:08 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Ashie62 wrote: I am considering Conforto advanced due to his years of the highest level of college baseball. I don't really believe there is harm at giving him a crack. Putting him on the 40 before he needs to be is a harm in and of itself as that would potentially create a logjam if we needed to promote someone else who wasnt on the 40 later. so if Nimmo is hitting and is either on the 40 or needs to be put there much sooner (i believe this offseason?) anyway, he makes more sense.

Edgy MD Jul 06 2015 01:14 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

There may indeed be no harm. But considering sending guy to the bigs with a month of experience above A+, presumably to be an everyday player, is almost never done, one has to believe there is the potential for harm. With regard to the alleged precedents from Houston and Minnesota, is there a case I'm overlooking?

Nymr83 Jul 06 2015 01:18 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Edgy MD wrote: Kind of surprised to see the Mets get out of town without the Niese-Ethier deal going down. Niese and Ethier certainly passed their auditions. And Cuddyer and Bolsinger certainly failed theirs. With Carlos Frias DL-bound, the Dodgies are looking hot to act. I don't like it, Ethier might not be the better player, is redundant with Granderson (a left-handed hitter who still owns righties but is better off on the bench vs lefties), and is owed alot more than Niese. I would go so far as to say that if the Dodgers tried to pass him through waivers I wouldnt even want to put a claim in given how much time and salary is left. Niese meanwhile is actually a decent bargain for a good 3rd/4th starter if you believe that is what he is. Ethier (33 years old) Contract: 2015:$18M 2016:$18M, 2017:$17.5M 2018:$17.5M club option ($2.5M buyout) 2018 salary guaranteed with 550 plate appearances in 2017 Niese (28 years old) Contract: 2015:$7M 2016:$9M, 2017:$10M club option ($0.5M buyout) 2018:$11M club option ($0.5M buyout)

Edgy MD Jul 06 2015 01:28 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Yeah, I'm not really advocating so much as sensing that something feels ready to go down and the Mets and Dodgers match up well with regard to their assets and liabilities.

Lefty Specialist Jul 06 2015 02:10 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Absolutely want no part of Ethier, for Niese or anybody else.

Nymr83 Jul 06 2015 02:15 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Who says "No"?: Scott Van Slyke for Niese, (Mets eat half this year's remaining dollars and 2-3 mil next year.)

Ceetar Jul 06 2015 02:18 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Nymr83 wrote: Who says "No"?: Scott Van Slyke for Niese, (Mets eat half this year's remaining dollars and 2-3 mil next year.) The Mets.

Ashie62 Jul 06 2015 06:19 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Scott Van Slyke sux.

Frayed Knot Jul 06 2015 06:55 PM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Ceetar wrote: Who says "No"?: Scott Van Slyke for Niese, (Mets eat half this year's remaining dollars and 2-3 mil next year.) The Mets. Even if one were given toward trading for SVS (and I'm not) there's no reason why the Mets should need to eat money on a Niese trade. His deal of $9 + $10, + $11/0.5 buyout for 2016-2018 is perfectly reasonable for a mid-rotation starter.

Nymr83 Jul 07 2015 07:58 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Frayed Knot wrote: Who says "No"?: Scott Van Slyke for Niese, (Mets eat half this year's remaining dollars and 2-3 mil next year.) The Mets. Even if one were given toward trading for SVS (and I'm not) there's no reason why the Mets should need to eat money on a Niese trade. His deal of $9 + $10, + $11/0.5 buyout for 2016-2018 is perfectly reasonable for a mid-rotation starter. not as reasonable as SvS's major league minimum though, and i think you see this a lot with midseason trades where the team's budgets may already be "locked in" for the year by ownership that they split the difference on the current year. Why no love for Van Slyke? he seems to me like a pretty decent player who has always been blocked by an outfield glut in Los Angelos. he is 28 years old but only has 580 PAs over the past 4 years. those 580 PAs add up to .257/.342/.465 (31 doubles, 24 homers, 61 walks). he looks like a player to me, certainly a better one than Conforto is right now. BR has his league/park-neutralized stats as the equivalent of .273/.360/.494 Why can't the Mets use this guy?

Ceetar Jul 07 2015 08:07 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

because he's a 28 year old outfielder who's only gotten about one season worth of AB so far? OPS down to nearly .700 against righties. So he's a better version of John Mayberry basically. That's a minor upgrade and not really worth Niese. You'd really have to see something to think he's a solid regular to do that. Not really a CFer so it's not like you're going to play him over Lagares and he's not better than Cuddyer or Granderson so..

Frayed Knot Jul 07 2015 08:09 AM Re: The Knee of Cuddyer

Why can't the Mets use this guy? It's not that they couldn't use him, he'd probably be better than Mayberry whose role he'd essentially take. But I wouldn't give up Niese for him and I certainly wouldn't give up Niese plus pay part of the freight. Besides, Van Slyke's a limited player - almost totally the opposite set of skills from his father. He doesn't run well, he doesn't field well, he doesn't hit RHP particularly well, he K's a lot, he's no longer young as you've already said. Plus for a high-K/low-BA slugger he's not that much of a slugger: a 17-HR over a 162-game average and of course he would be a poor bet to actually get 17 HRs if given a full season because then he's not just facing the pitchers he has the best shot at. Useful piece? - Sure. Worth a solid starting pitcher? - Not even close IMO. I'd give them Gee if they want.

[Frayed Knot]

Current word is that Cuddyer had an MRI and will miss a couple days, but most likely NOT need to go on the DL.


On the Conforto front, Brandon Nimmo is one who is going to have to be added to the 40-man roster prior to the 2016 season anyway so perhaps he, with his 4x the number of AA ABs under his belt as compared to Conforto, would be the more logical call-up if one is needed anytime soon. Confront, drafted two years later, won't be under those constrictions this coming winter.