Curtis Granderson Sucks

[Frayed Knot]

The only thing I'll say for Granderson to date -- and I can't prove this but I believe it to be true -- is that he's seemed to be really unlucky so far, lots of at 'em balls off his bat.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I don't get the whole winning in spite of thing and why that's
important to some. The RF's for the Giants were somewhat average
a couple of years ago and that ring they won is just as shiny.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally.

I assume you're talking about the 2015 Mets. If you are, and I think you are, their offense kinda blows, too. They're in first place in spite of their bats. The offense is bad enough that as sucky as Granderson is, the Mets have several starters even worse. But that doesn't mean that Grandy's very good.

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. I assume you're talking about the 2015 Mets. If you are, and I think you are, their offense kinda blows, too. They're in first place in spite of their bats. The offense is bad enough that as sucky as Granderson is, the Mets have several starters even worse. But that doesn't mean that Grandy's very good.

his stats mean he doesn't _suck_ though.

Also, small sample size. If he goes 1/3 with a HR and a BB tonight his SLG jumps like 30 points to .239/.369/.359

Meaning he's one good offensive day from going from okay to good and a hot series from great.

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks. Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team. The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be. I agree. And teams have to have average players because there's more of them then there are stars. But that's a far cry from saying that Granderson is very valuable. Granderson's not an asset at this stage of his career. But these are different questions. We started out with: Does Granderson suck? (a/k/a how good or not good is he?)

I'm not sure I know where he was called "very valuable." But I disagree that he's not an asset.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: Also, small sample size. If he goes 1/3 with a HR and a BB tonight his SLG jumps like 30 points to .239/.369/.359 Meaning he's one good offensive day from going from okay to good and a hot series from great.

He's been a Met for almost 200 games, now. And this year, he's, more or less, the same player he was last year.

[Edgy MD]

He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing.

Fangraphs had him at 1.2 WAR last season, and on a pace for 1.8 this season.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing.

Yeah, but his value, or efficiency, is about the same. By the way, those traits you mention are signs of an aging player losing bat speed. And even though Granderson's always had a good eye for the strike zone, he's walking at a significantly higher rate this year, even for him.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I also think Grandy looks better this year than last but its still early and I don't put it past him to wind up worse. I wouldn't doubt his walk rate has improved as a defense against slowing bat. , He probably also misses the MFY PED Pipeline.

It's obvious to me the Mets hope he + Cuddy can hold the fort till Conforto and Nimmo come around and I don't think that's a terrible bet at all. Someone has to play right field till then.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Fangraphs had him at 1.2 WAR last season, and on a pace for 1.8 this season.

Mainly due to crappy defense ratings though. rWAR has him on pace for like 3.6 this year, seems to think he's played better defense.

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Yeah, but his value, or efficiency, is about the same.

The numbers posted by me and others say not really.

By the way, those traits you mention are signs of an aging player losing bat speed.

Maybe, but that's speculative. He's certainly an aging player. Show me one who isn't, though. His job, like every player, is to hold his position until somebody takes it from him. No player, younger or older, has.

And even though Granderson's always had a good eye for the strike zone, he's walking at a significantly higher rate this year, even for him.

Several of us have said as much. How can this be bad?

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks.

Of the 17 RF'ers who qualified last year, Granderson was 13 out of 17 in OPS with .714. That is below average. The median was Brandon Moss of Oakland, at .772.

Edgy MD wrote: Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally.

The Mets have three productive hitters. Wright, d'Arnaud and Duda. Everyone else has an OPS in the .600's. Within the lineup, some of the guys' recent history suggests they will improve (Murphy, for the last three years, has been at .735), some are young and you hope to improve, but Granderson is old, expensive and not likely to improve greatly on his current performance (realistically, he will end up in the low .700's). This is not enough for a corner OF'er making the type of money he makes.

There are many reasons the Mets are in first place, but Granderson is not anywhere near one of those reasons.

Edgy MD wrote: Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team.

Sure. But very seldom are they the second highest paid player on that team. And if they are, they are a disappointment. Imagine at the Granderson press conference, Sandy were to say "We are hoping he can be a middling player, so that we can surround him with excellent, young, cheap talent."

The Mets' biggest problem on the field is hitting. The Mets' biggest problem off the field is lack of finances. When you put those together, Curtis Granderson, with his big contract and lack of production, is the Mets' biggest problem.

Edgy MD wrote: The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be.

Releasing him is a different story. I don't have any solutions yet. I am still trying to get everyone to recognize the problem.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Yeah, but his value, or efficiency, is about the same. The numbers posted by me and others say not really.

Really? His OPS this year, walks and all, is worse than it was last year.

[Edgy MD]

I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks. Of the 17 RF'ers who qualified last year, Granderson was 13 out of 17 in OPS with .714. That is below average. The median was Brandon Moss of Oakland, at .772.

Well, I was speaking there more generally about the value of averageness, not necessarily speaking to where he is this year or last year.

Last year, nonetheless is last year. This year, he's ninth out of 12 guys in the National League in OPS. Probably better when you adjust for OBP being more valuable than slugging, but he's not where you want him to be, no doubt.

Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. The Mets have three productive hitters. Wright, d'Arnaud and Duda. Everyone else has an OPS in the .600's. Within the lineup, some of the guys' recent history suggests they will improve (Murphy, for the last three years, has been at .735), some are young and you hope to improve, but Granderson is old, expensive and not likely to improve greatly on his current performance (realistically, he will end up in the low .700's). This is not enough for a corner OF'er making the type of money he makes. There are many reasons the Mets are in first place, but Granderson is not anywhere near one of those reasons.

I certainly didn't assert he's why they are in first. But at the same time, the money is spent either way.

Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team. Sure. But very seldom are they the second highest paid player on that team. And if they are, they are a disappointment. Imagine at the Granderson press conference, Sandy were to say "We are hoping he can be a middling player, so that we can surround him with excellent, young, cheap talent." The Mets' biggest problem on the field is hitting. The Mets' biggest problem off the field is lack of finances. When you put those together, Curtis Granderson, with his big contract and lack of production, is the Mets' biggest problem.

I'm not sure what you want done with the contract. The Mets are held to it whether you play the guy or not, release him or not.

The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be. Releasing him is a different story. I don't have any solutions yet. I am still trying to get everyone to recognize the problem.

Well, Vic seemingly advocated for his release, or at least his "dump"-ing, believing perhaps that some player with a better cost/benefit ratio can be gotten. I disagree with the notion of the release, and I have no reason to believe the Mets are ignoring deals that are out there that would allow them to improve by moving Granderson.

I do have solutions. They're just not easy ones. You coach your players, keep your eye out for new ones, hoping either the starters improve or the reserves and/or farmhands improve enough to take their jobs. You work hard, run a tight ship, keep analyzing the data, and make the smartest possible choices, even if they're less than gratifying. You know that you've looked closer than anybody at the alternatives.

So if not Granderson, it's Mayberry and/or Niewenhuis. Nothing in the ledger says they'd be better. So then you look to Vegas and think about guys like Ceciliani, Vaughn, Tajeiron, and maybe Castellanos. If one of them is to take his job, they'll probably take Niewenuis' first, so maybe that's where the advocacy should be focused. "Promote one of these guys ripping the ball in the PCL!! Nieuwenhuis sucks!!"

It's a tough call to make. The guys the team ideally would like to take the place of Granderson and Cuddyer are Nimmo and Conforto. You understand why they don't want to pull the trigger on them just yet.

So they do what teams do: bide their time, try and make adjustments and scratch things out, generally choosing evolution before revolution. It's not as satisfying for the sake of drama, but it has gotten them this far, hasn't it?

[Centerfield]

The disconnect between you and me is that you are focused on what to do about the issue (productive thought).

I am all about grumbling and pointing fingers.

I am not advocating for Granderson's release. I haven't thought things through enough to see if this is a good move.

I'm advocating for increased complaining about Granderson.

[Ceetar]

also, OPS isn't park-adjusted. Granderson is 12th of 24 RFers in wRC+ (which is weighted Runs Created)
13th in wOBA.

And he's literally first in BB/K.

You can argue all you want about a slower bat. The time will come when pitchers will adjust to him based on this stat, with more pitches down the middle. If his bat is slower, he'll miss a bunch of those, if he's not a shell of himself (or you know, even if he's last year Curtis) he'll drive a few of them out of the part and his ISO will soar.

Except this might not be true. Granderson is seeing roughly a league average amount of balls in the zone. He's just swinging a lot less.

The average hitter swings at 30% of pitches out of the strike zone. Granderson swings at 14.4%.

Pitchers, for whatever reason, are throwing him more fastballs and less sliders. Sample size maybe? Or perhaps simply that his patience is getting him into hitters counts, and therefore fastball counts. He's getting a lot fewer first pitch strikes, so that puts him in the drivers seat to begin with.

Why are pitchers starting out with ball one? It's not like Curtis has ever been a free swinger. Maybe the answer here is that pitchers are nibbling around the edges as a result of often starting out 1-0? They know he can punish them, and they nibble and eventually lose him.

[Guest d'Kong76]

As FK kinda said before, his UAHBPIP is probably quite high too.

[Centerfield]

What I'm basically saying here is that the only reason Granderson isn't getting skewered by the fans and media is because he's white.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

#Fact

[Guest d'Kong76]

Damn honkeys!

[Guest themetfairy]

Centerfield wrote: The disconnect between you and me is that you are focused on what to do about the issue (productive thought). I am all about grumbling and pointing fingers. I am not advocating for Granderson's release. I haven't thought things through enough to see if this is a good move. I'm advocating for increased complaining about Granderson.

I can do that. Every so often I give myself license to be my grandfather's granddaughter and complain just because I don't like a player.

If you want to start complaining about Cuddyer, I'll really get on board the Bitch&Moan train. Especially if he's going to keep on stepping on Lagares!

[G-Fafif]

themetfairy wrote: Centerfield wrote: I am all about grumbling and pointing fingers. Every so often I give myself license to ... complain just because I don't like a player.

This, too, is what fandom is sometimes about in small to moderate doses.

I give Granderson a little more of a berth than I'm inclined to because I realize he truly sucked last April and then sucked less (occasionally much less) as the year went on, though not enough to justify the contract. There is also something about how much good-guyness he projects that is vaguely offputting, even if it's far preferable to the jerk store calling to say they ran out of him.

Cuddyer and Lagares need to tape a stripe between a little bit of left and all of left-center like Felix and Oscar or Greg and Marcia so Cuddyer knows where he's not supposed to stray.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Vic Sage wrote: So if the Mets had Stargell and Aaron and Bench and Morgan and Seaver and Carlton in their primes on the same team, it'd be OK with you if my mother was their starting shortstop, right? i don't know... how good is your mom? Can she throw the ball accurately to first? sign her up!

To tell you the truth, I don't know. I never saw her play the position. (I shouldn't be replying. This is gonna turn into bad mother jokes).

[Benjamin Grimm]

I do wish that Curtis didn't have a four-year contract. But on the other hand, I hope that he turns it around to such a degree that we'll be glad to have him on the team in 2017.

[Edgy MD]

Boy, that homer sure sucked down the line in a hurry.

[Centerfield]

Was it Frayed Knot that started the Murphy thread last week? Lol.

Granderson: Hey CF, FUCK YOU.

[Ceetar]

Curtis Granderson .242/.364/.363. wRC+ 115.

I called 1/3 with a HR/BB. he's 1/3 with a HR. (and he should've had that walk)

[Frayed Knot]

If he was playing back w/the Yanx he'd have two HRs today. Or maybe even three, I think there was a check-swing foul earlier that might have gone out of YSIII.

[Guest themetfairy]

Granderson's post-game interview - "Fuck You CPF!"

[Edgy MD]

Dilson managing the post-game OK.