2014 WS: Royals vs. Giants

[Frayed Knot]

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I got a little money that's saying Bumgarner is an MVP. MVP no question. But this deal with the official scorer deciding that Bumgarner gets the win for tonight's game (even though Affeldt was the pitcher when SF took the lead) has the whiff of being contrived.

Either the official scorer reversed his call or Buck simply passed along incorrect information to begin with, but Affeldt correctly winds up with the win last night and Bumgarner
merely gets credit for the routine 15-out (2 hit) save.

[Guest d'Kong76]

G-Fafif wrote: Madison 6.0 Bumgarner 4.0

Nice!
Congrats to the Giants and their mini-dynasty.

[Guest sharpie]

Echo all of that. While I had nothing against the Royals I was for the Giants all the way. I like the way they play, I like their players. It's amazing that they could win the WS with only one effective starting pitcher.

[seawolf17]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: seawolf17 wrote: The Royals' third-base coach will probably be kicking himself all winter for not sending Gordon there. I dunno ... I don't think he makes it if he tries. Look at the replays-- absent one of the relay guys losing an arm in mid-throw, there's absolutely no way he makes it if he tries.

Probably. But that doesn't mean he's not kicking himself in retrospect, considering they'd gotten nothing off Bumgarner the whole way.

[Lefty Specialist]

I don't think there's a third base coach with balls big enough to take the chance that he gets a runner thrown out at home to end a World Series. A halfway decent throw and he's out by 30 feet.

[Ceetar]

Lefty Specialist wrote: I don't think there's a third base coach with balls big enough to take the chance that he gets a runner thrown out at home to end a World Series. A halfway decent throw and he's out by 30 feet.

That's fair, on the other hand you've got 2 outs and MadBum dealing plus the Giants were fielding nervous, who says the LF doesn't spike it in a panic to get it in?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: I don't think there's a third base coach with balls big enough to take the chance that he gets a runner thrown out at home to end a World Series. A halfway decent throw and he's out by 30 feet. That's fair, on the other hand you've got 2 outs and MadBum dealing plus the Giants were fielding nervous, who says the LF doesn't spike it in a panic to get it in?

I was rooting for him to make the attempt just so we'd have a World Series that turned (or ended) on a Little League fielding and/or running play.

I imagine if he did we'd subsequently have the first WS to end or turn on a Little League running/fielding play that was also decided on video review and interpretation of the block-the-plate edict.

[Edgy MD]

I imagine Yost personally endorsed his decision and lifted that burden from his wee shoulders. Video review all seems to support his choice.

Cool to see the World Series still can't go off without an appearance by Lonnie Smith, if only in spirit.

[HahnSolo]

Bottom of the fifth, Infante leads off with a hit; he was the first batter faced by Bumgardner. Do you bunt Escobar there? Yost did, no one in the booth questioned it, despite it only being the fifth inning.

I don't like it...I know it's Bumgardner, but maybe your best chance to get to him is before you let him get in a groove.

[metsmarathon]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ceetar wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: I don't think there's a third base coach with balls big enough to take the chance that he gets a runner thrown out at home to end a World Series. A halfway decent throw and he's out by 30 feet. That's fair, on the other hand you've got 2 outs and MadBum dealing plus the Giants were fielding nervous, who says the LF doesn't spike it in a panic to get it in? I was rooting for him to make the attempt just so we'd have a World Series that turned (or ended) on a Little League fielding and/or running play. I imagine if he did we'd subsequently have the first WS to end or turn on a Little League running/fielding play that was also decided on video review and interpretation of the block-the-plate edict.

and, quite deliciously, it would've featured none other than buster posey at the dish.

[bmfc1]

Nate Silver says "send him!": http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/send-alex-gordon/

[Ceetar]

HahnSolo wrote: Bottom of the fifth, Infante leads off with a hit; he was the first batter faced by Bumgardner. Do you bunt Escobar there? Yost did, no one in the booth questioned it, despite it only being the fifth inning. I don't like it...I know it's Bumgardner, but maybe your best chance to get to him is before you let him get in a groove.

The radio guys questioned it, criticized even. First time I've had the radio on for the postseason and was only for 30 minutes so I don't know which one it was. (I had to scan for ESPN radio. 970? )

[Frayed Knot]

HahnSolo wrote: Bottom of the fifth, Infante leads off with a hit; he was the first batter faced by Bumgardner. Do you bunt Escobar there? Yost did, no one in the booth questioned it, despite it only being the fifth inning. I don't like it...I know it's Bumgardner, but maybe your best chance to get to him is before you let him get in a groove.

That bunt was talked about quite a bit by the booth. Not surprisingly, Reynolds was for it, Verducci very much against.
Adding fuel to it all was that Escobar was one of the few who actually hit Bumgarner earlier in the series.

Aoki then followed it up with that liner to LF that I was sure was a double but they had Perez swung way over towards the line and he caught it fairly easily for out #2. Cain then K'd

[HahnSolo]

It was Schulman and Aaron Boone; I heard them earlier in the game in the car. They're actually pretty good.

[ashie62]

bmfc1 wrote: Nate Silver says "send him!": http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/send-alex-gordon/

Gordon doesn't have a ton of speed and looked winded coming into third.

[Frayed Knot]

So how often does a team win a 7-game series while having their closer throw a total of six pitches - all of them to one batter during a blow-out loss?
Maybe, in the crush to put Bochy into the HoF, one can question how Santiago Casilla faced just the one hitter in the series while Hunter Strickland, already coming off a 4-HR in 4.1 IP during the early rounds, appeared 4 times for 4 innings facing 16 hitters.

[bmfc1]

bmfc1 wrote: Nate Silver says "send him!": http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/send-alex-gordon/

Fangraphs says "don't send him!": http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/alex-gordon-barely-had-a-chance/

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I got a little money that's saying Bumgarner is an MVP. MVP no question. But this deal with the official scorer deciding that Bumgarner gets the win for tonight's game (even though Affeldt was the pitcher when SF took the lead) has the whiff of being contrived.

Baseball-Reference has this going down as a save. Was this really the ruling or are you pulling my gam?

If the most you can possibly ask out of a pitcher in a World Series is 27 shoutout innings --- three shutout starts --- then 21 innings and one run from MBG is about as far along that spectrum as anybody's ever gotten, right? Tops Pete Alexander from 1926. Tops Orel Hershiser from 1988. Tops Randy Johnson from 2001.

[Frayed Knot]

The problem with all of Silver's calculations and his stressing how unlikely it would be to score Perez's AB (even though Perez had HR'd off of Bumgarner earlier in the week) is that he gives Gordon a much better shot at scoring than I think is warranted: "... even Gordon had been a 2-to-1 underdog to score, he should have tried."
2-to-1 underdog?!? -- I'm not sure his odds were as favorable as 10-to-1 against.

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I got a little money that's saying Bumgarner is an MVP. MVP no question. But this deal with the official scorer deciding that Bumgarner gets the win for tonight's game (even though Affeldt was the pitcher when SF took the lead) has the whiff of being contrived. Baseball-Reference has this going down as a save. Was this really the ruling or are you pulling my gam?

Sure it's a save: he came in with the lead, protected it until the end, finished the game, and fit ALL the categories to make it a save situation:
- came in with the tying run on deck or at bat ... Check
- 3 runs or less .. Check
- three innings or more ... Check


Joe Buck initially said that the official scorer had credited the win to Bumgarner but that seemed wrong to me both because it was bending the stats to fit the best story and short-changing what Affeldt did between Hudson & Bummy. The only reason to take the win away from the reliever who was the pitcher of record is if his outing fits the 'both brief and ineffective' standard. At 2.1 innings of 1 hit ball his contribution hardly deserves the insult.

If the most you can possibly ask out of a pitcher in a World Series is 27 shoutout innings --- three shutout starts --- then 21 innings and one run from MBG is about as far along that spectrum as anybody's ever gotten, right? Tops Pete Alexander from 1926. Tops Orel Hershiser from 1988. Tops Randy Johnson from 2001.

I have no idea what this part of your post means.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I got a little money that's saying Bumgarner is an MVP. MVP no question. But this deal with the official scorer deciding that Bumgarner gets the win for tonight's game (even though Affeldt was the pitcher when SF took the lead) has the whiff of being contrived. Baseball-Reference has this going down as a save. Was this really the ruling or are you pulling my gam? If the most you can possibly ask out of a pitcher in a World Series is 27 shoutout innings --- three shutout starts --- then 21 innings and one run from MBG is about as far along that spectrum as anybody's ever gotten, right? Tops Pete Alexander from 1926. Tops Orel Hershiser from 1988. Tops Randy Johnson from 2001.

Just asking: How much should the fact that these wins came against the Royals, in a down year for offense in general, enter into the greatness conversation? No doubt Bummy was outstanding, but, I dunno. I'd have been considerably more blown away had he done it against, you know, some other team. Not to take anything away from the Royals who played by the rules to get where they did, just that, I think they did it mostly by demoralizing a superior Orioles club with defense + a little team hot streak.

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: If the most you can possibly ask out of a pitcher in a World Series is 27 shoutout innings --- three shutout starts --- then 21 innings and one run from MBG is about as far along that spectrum as anybody's ever gotten, right? Tops Pete Alexander from 1926. Tops Orel Hershiser from 1988. Tops Randy Johnson from 2001. I have no idea what this part of your post means.

Really? Again with the "no idea"? How hard can it be?

If the most you can possibly ask out of a pitcher in a World Series is 27 shoutout innings...

That isn't literally the most you can ask, but I'm preceding my question by asking for the understanding we accept for the sake of argument that it's the most you can reasonably ask of a pitcher.

--- three shutout starts ---

This is where I get the 27 innings and no runs from.

then 21 innings and one run from MBG

MBG is a shortened version of Madison Bumgarner. It's perhaps an elusive code I've used, but he is the subject of much of the thread.

is about as far along that spectrum as anybody's ever gotten, right?

I'm asking here if he's come as close to that ideal as any pitcher ever.

Tops Pete Alexander from 1926. Tops Orel Hershiser from 1988. Tops Randy Johnson from 2001.

These are three superlative World Series pitching performances that come to mind, each of which had a bottom line inferior to Bumgarner's, with regard to innings and runs allowed. For shorthand, I did not use subjects in these sentences. If I had, the subjects would have each been "It," or "Bumgarner's performance."

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: Really? Again with the "no idea"? How hard can it be?

Because I didn't realize what MBG stood for, nor did I see what any of those past referenced performances had to do with the Win vs Save discussion.

[G-Fafif]

Perhaps some of you fellow old-enoughs remember the parody paper Not The New York Times that made the rounds during the newspaper strike of 1978 (recently revisited here). Well, if you wanted Not The New York Mets Ownership, you can find it in San Francisco. Larry Baer wrote this letter to Giants fans after winning the World Series. Even allowing for Baer's post-champagne giddiness, I'm trying to imagine such a letter emanating from the desk of F. or J. Wilpon between depositions and -- even spotting the Mets a championship -- I can't see it.

Dear [Giants Fan]: We�re back in our offices now, confetti still stuck to our shoes, and diving into the preparations for 2015. But my first order of business is to thank you. Through all the ups and downs of the season, you were there. No matter the won-loss record, you showed up with Panda hats and Hunter Pence signs and orange everything. Your love and energy carried our players through some very tough days this summer. And they answered your unwavering belief in them with a hard-fought, absolutely brilliant October. The San Francisco Giants became the first National League team since the 1940s to win three World Series Championships in five years. It is amazing, the stuff of dreams. And yet it is not a surprise. This is what happens when a community lifts a team, and a team lifts a community. It�s what happens when we�re all in this together � the fans, the players, the coaches, the front office, the ownership group, every usher and vendor in the park. Players from around the league recognize that. Each year, our experienced, smart and passionate baseball department led by Brian Sabean constructs a roster with painstaking care and an exacting eye, finding and developing those few special players with the grit, heart and the talent to be Giants. In Bruce Bochy, we have a manager whose own will and resilience set the tone for his team. That championship blood he so admires in his players? It coursed through his veins first. When he goes to battle, his team follows. And what a team. These players saw themselves as world champions from the first day of spring training. They didn�t care about history or prognostications or anything except each other. They went into the final game of the World Series knowing no team in 35 years had won a Game 7 on the road. They didn�t care � they scrapped and fought in Kansas City � just as they did in Pittsburgh, Washington and St. Louis � until that last ball of a long season descended into Pablo�s glove. This �find a way� culture also permeates a Giants front office of exceptional, tireless and passionate employees. They collaborate, they innovate and they are customer-centric and community-centric. They are the unsung heroes of our organization and a big key to our success. I�m already excited about what the 2015 season might hold. What will be the next chapter in the growing legend of Madison Bumgarner, the best post-season pitcher in baseball history? How many more highlight reels will be filled by young, homegrown stars such as Buster Posey, Joe Panik, Brandon Crawford and Brandon Belt? And by Gregor Blanco and Hunter Pence? Might we see a third no-hitter from Tim Lincecum? Can Yusmeiro Petit break his own Major League record of 46 consecutive batters retired in a single season? Can Jeremy Affeldt notch two more scoreless innings in a post-season to break the immortal Mariano Rivera�s record? On behalf of everyone at the San Francisco Giants, thank you again for carrying us through another dramatic and exhilarating season. No team anywhere has fans like ours. We could not be more grateful. We look forward to seeing you at FanFest in February! Sincerely, Laurence M. Baer, President & CEO

No "send us your deposit for season tickets now so you don't miss out on more championship action in 2015" pitch. No P.S. urging the reader to visit sfgiants.com for great World Series merchandise. No loyalty oaths.

And the guy gave good letter even after a bad season.

[Ceetar]

no, but for just $500 a seat you can get on the waiting list for 2015 postseason tickets.

http://mlb.mlb.com/sf/ticketing/season.jsp

[G-Fafif]

Ceetar wrote: no, but for just $500 a seat you can get on the waiting list for 2015 postseason tickets. http://mlb.mlb.com/sf/ticketing/season.jsp

No doubt the Giants like money as much as the next team. But nice to see correspondence from a team (or team owner) that is, as the anagram of Alec Guinness has it (which I learned from The Simpsons), genuine class.

[Ceetar]

G-Fafif wrote: Ceetar wrote: no, but for just $500 a seat you can get on the waiting list for 2015 postseason tickets. http://mlb.mlb.com/sf/ticketing/season.jsp No doubt the Giants like money as much as the next team. But nice to see correspondence from a team (or team owner) that is, as the anagram of Alec Guinness has it (which I learned from The Simpsons), genuine class.

I dunno, I could easily see that same letter coming from the Wilpons. Sub in some Canyon of Heroes/New York supremacy stuff.

[G-Fafif]

I'm willing to find out.

[G-Fafif]

Your World Series MVP is also Sports Illustrated's Sportsman of the Year. Congratulations to Madison Bumgarner, who rides an epic postseason to a December magazine cover. First baseball Sportsman since Captain Intangibles and his Cinnamon Trick in 2009. First palatable baseball choice since the Red Sox were chosen as an entity in 2004.

Tom Seaver won it in 1969. He remains the standard for all things excellent.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Your World Series MVP is also Sports Illustrated's Sportsman of the Year. Congratulations to Madison Bumgarner, who rides an epic postseason to a December magazine cover. First baseball Sportsman since Captain Intangibles and his Cinnamon Trick in 2009. First palatable baseball choice since the Red Sox were chosen as an entity in 2004.

Also, it's the first time since, say, non-druggy Lance Armstrong that a fictional character has been selected for the honor. I mean, seriously, this is some literally fantastic stuff... like, it's almost too much to believe.

The Giants, after selecting him 10th overall in the 2007 draft, assigned him to their Instructional League team in Scottsdale, Ariz. The secret he can tell now is this: After hardly a week there, he called San Francisco assistant general manager Bobby Evans, then the director of player personnel, and told him he wanted to quit baseball... Bumgarner would pass the downtime by walking from his room at a Days Inn to the Scottsdale Fashion Square mall. But he didn't go inside. In a courtyard there was a statue of a bull. Bumgarner would bring a lasso and practice his roping against the inanimate animal, pretending he was home.

and

One day during spring training this year in Scottsdale, Bumgarner and his wife were roping cattle when Madison was startled by a large snake he figured was a rattler. He quickly grabbed an ax and hacked it to pieces. When Ali, an expert field dresser, examined what was left of the snake, she found two baby jackrabbits inside pieces of it and extracted them. A short while later the Bumgarners noticed that one of the rabbits had moved slightly. It was alive. Ali brought the rabbit back to their apartment and for the next few days kept it warm and bottle-nursed it. The rabbit soon was healthy enough for them to release into the wild.

and

There would be, however, one obvious change in his life as a consequence of being named Sportsman of the Year: Bumgarner would have to acquire the first suit and tie he ever owned.

and-- lest we bury the lede-- THIS:

It's all true. That he was so good so young that he started playing coach-pitch baseball at age four against seven-year-olds, and is so adept with either hand that he shoots a bow, bats, writes and ropes righthanded, but throws from the left side. That his father, Kevin, wouldn't let him throw a curveball until he had a driver's license. That before he dated Ali, he dated a girl named Madison Bumgarner ("No relation, I'm sure of it").

Your World Series MVP, ladies y gents... Sidd Fucking Finch.