Key Met of 2014

[Ceetar]

projecting Granderson to hit his head, twice, and never be the same player does seem like a stretch. Bay had a 105 OPS+ his first year with the Mets. it's not great, but if Curtis does that it will hardly sink the Mets.

[Edgy MD]

I don't think it's true that the Mets refuse to swallow their mistakes and move on. Nor do I think that's the issue. Maybe the issue is not making the mistakes in the first place and creating a situation where the redemption of that mistake is too important to the teams success. But the team bought out Jason Bay with a year left on his deal, released �liver P�rez with a year and $12 million remaining on his contract, and cut Luis Castillo from spring camp with a year and $6 million remaining.

The "Mets don't understand sunk cost" theme is old and lacking in evidence. They may understand nothing better.

[Benjamin Grimm]

The Mets have frequently been willing to swallow the final year of their multi-year mistakes. I don't know if they've ever bailed on someone earlier than that. What happened with Bay was entirely predictable based on what happened with Castillo, Perez, and others going way back.

[Vic Sage]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't think it's true that the Mets refuse to swallow their mistakes and move on. Nor do I think that's the issue. Maybe the issue is not making the mistakes in the first place and creating a situation where the redemption of that mistake is too important to the teams success. But the team bought out Jason Bay with a year left on his deal, released �liver P�rez with a year and $12 million remaining on his contract, and cut Luis Castillo from spring camp with a year and $6 million remaining. The "Mets don't understand sunk cost" theme is old and lacking in evidence. They may understand nothing better.

All of those players were given opportunities to wreck the team's seasons well after the point that they had all established their lack of utility. They continued to be given a spot in the lineup because they had big contracts. It's not just that they weren't cut earlier, it's that the team continued to give them ABs and IPs. Yes, they were ultimately bought out of their final seasons, but long after they should have been. Every team makes bad deals (some more than others, but that's a separate issue); it's what you do afterwards that makes the difference between successful orgs and less successful ones. Lets see how the Angels deal with the Pujols and Hamilton deals. If those guys continue to fade, it seems unlikely to me the team will continue to run them out there regardless and wait til the last year of those deals to move on. And if they do, they'll have made a tragic mistake.

[Edgy MD]

I disagree with virtually all of that.

Jason Bay spent the majority of his last season --- what was to be his next-to-last season --- on the DL recovering from injuries including a concussion.

Luis Castillo, in his scheduled-next-to-last/ultimately-last season got into 86 games and was buried down the stretch, garnering only 18 trips to the plate from September 1 onward.

Oliver Perez was on the dark side of one of the deepest benchings in the modern era --- being active on the roster for the final two months but appearing in only four games.

So the notion of running them out there, ruining the team while better players were just itching to get a break, it just doesn't jive with the facts at all.

[ashie62]

Jason Bay has done zilch since he left the Mets...Perhaps the Mets signed Bay just as he became washed up..

It happens...

[TransMonk]

It's Granderson.

It's been a long while since the Mets consistently had a player in the lineup who opposing pitchers consistently feared other than Wright. If Grandy can be that guy all year, then there is hope for the offense.

If not, then the Mets offense is going to look pretty similar to how it has the past 5 years and the team will struggle to win more than they lose.

[Frayed Knot]

Ron Locke was a key Met in 1964

[Edgy MD]

Jimmy Key was a Key Blue Jay in 1987. Most every year, really.

[Theoldmole]

Wilmer Flores. They said Murphy couldn't play second, and they're actually still saying it, but he's playing it well enough to help the club. If Flores can play short well enough, and can hit, he'll make a big difference in the club, even if it's only as attractive trade bait.

[Ceetar]

TheOldMole wrote: Wilmer Flores. They said Murphy couldn't play second, and they're actually still saying it, but he's playing it well enough to help the club. If Flores can play short well enough, and can hit, he'll make a big difference in the club, even if it's only as attractive trade bait.

They, and only some, doubted Murphy could play second well, but he hadn't done so before.

They DID play Flores at short, evaluated him, and decided he couldn't do it. So much so that they moved him to a position blocked by their star player. Maybe the defense becomes less important as they grasp for offense, but I still think it's a Spring Training "explore all options" thing here.

[Edgy MD]

They haven't moved Flores to third base, if that's what you're suggesting. He played first, second, and third last season, but mostly second.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: They haven't moved Flores to third base, if that's what you're suggesting. He played first, second, and third last season, but mostly second.

After they moved him OFF of SS in 2011 he played mainly 3rd. 87 games versus 27 second. That was still A+/AA. It feels like once he showed he was likely to be able to hit, and they moved him to AAA, they started considering more about _where_ he could play. And all last year, while we had a disaster at SS in the majors, no one thought "hey, why not try him at SS again?"

That's telling to me.

[Edgy MD]

Sure it's telling. But he still wasn't primarily a thirdbaseman last year.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

In the majors last year, he was; when he wasn't pinch-hitting, he was playing la esquina caliente.

[Edgy MD]

Yes, but arguing that he was deliberately moved in the minors to a position that the team's star player has blocked is something like the opposite of noting that he got to play the position in the majors after said star player got hurt and left the position unblocked.

Know what else is telling?

.300 / .349 / .479 // .827 between St. Lucie and Bingo in 2012.
.321 / .357 / .531 // .887 in Buffalo in 2013.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I really hope that Wilmer gets 500 at bats for the Mets this year (without the opportunity coming from an injury to Wright or Murphy).

Right now there are two openings in the Mets infield. If he can hit in the majors like he's done in the minors, I'd like to see the Mets try to find a way to get him into one of those spots. Shortstop is one way. First base is another. Or he can play second and Murphy can play first.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy MD wrote: Yes, but arguing that he was deliberately moved in the minors to a position that the team's star player has blocked is something like the opposite of noting that he got to play the position in the majors after said star player got hurt and left the position unblocked. Know what else is telling? .300 / .349 / .479 // .827 between St. Lucie and Bingo in 2012. .321 / .357 / .531 // .887 in Buffalo in 2013.

Well, but he was moved there. Like Cee said, he played third mostly for the two years before that (amidst a whole lot of Met-org leaks that he didn't "have the feet" for a middle-infield position, IIRC). The 2B move last year seems more like, "Well, third's taken for a while now. Now what?"

Also, that his numbers bumped up a bit in Vegas isn't THAT surprising, is it?

[Benjamin Grimm]

The 2012 numbers aren't bad either.

[Ceetar]

right, it was the continued proving that he CAN hit that forced them to start evaluating where he can play.

Now, it's not like Tejada is a great SS defensively. he's about average and had a sub-par season there defensively as well. Does the increased offense make up for the hit in defense? I'm not sure.. Duda was 18% better than average last year at hitting and basically had all his value erased via defense. and a lot more balls get hit to SS.

And the other positions just don't really work without a trade of some sort. He's probably 4th or 5th on the 1B depth chart, and Murphy's got second plus Satin (and even Eric Young Jr) can play there too.

[Edgy MD]

I'm not arguing that he's destined for shortstop. I'm dismissing the notion that he was deliberately buried behind Wright. He wasn't.

The idea that his hitting forced consideration of him at second and first --- I agree.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Regardless of the wording, I don't think Cee was imputing actual motive to the organ-eye-zation; I know I wasn't. I think it's more that they were so convinced about his lack of short-itude that they moved him to the place where they thought he'd be best suited, regardless of the fact that they were locked in for the next 5-10 years there. They deliberately placed him in a place where he'd probably be logjammed, not that they deliberately logjammed him.

I'll stipulate that he's at least a keylet, though.

[Ceetar]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Regardless of the wording, I don't think Cee was imputing actual motive to the organ-eye-zation; I know I wasn't. I think it's more that they were so convinced about his lack of short-itude that they moved him to the place where they thought he'd be best suited, regardless of the fact that they were locked in for the next 5-10 years there. They deliberately placed him in a place where he'd probably be logjammed, not that they deliberately logjammed him. I'll stipulate that he's at least a keylet, though.

Basically.

Well, If Flores can hit like he's shown and not embarrass himself at SS, that's certainly a key swing, but it's the downswing that doesn't exist. If he hit's like Quintanilla and his defense makes Jeter look rangy he's not going to play and therefore won't hurt them. Really the expectations for SS in general are so low that it's hard to see it as key to anything.

[Edgy MD]

Wouldn't it be something, though?

For an organization that has been eating it on outfield defense for a few years, that is now bending over backwards to improve their outfield defense, to suddenly decide that they are willing to eat it on infield defense to get a better bat in there?

That would be something. Be a longshot to work, but it would be something.

i'd love to have Flores in a supersub role, playing four-five days a week in four-five different positions, excelling at none, but putting all his focus on murdering the ball with his bat.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Filling the Kevin Mitchell Memorial Chair? Oh, indeed.

[Zvon]

Bobby 'O said yesterday that Parnell is the key player, and he has a point. But I can't agree that he's the #1 choice.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Bobby O says a lot of things.