ShortStop 2014

[Frayed Knot]

In no particular order, and not necessarily the final word on things.

JJ Hardy - Balt http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hardyjj01.shtml
-- the pros and cons of him have been discussed elsewhere. although I don�t know if I�ve ever heard that he�s actually available
Basically you�d be getting a good glove plus a big increase in power, but also more of the high-K/low-OBP stuff that�s plauged the rest of the lineup. And he�s one year from FA

Stephen Drew - FA http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/drewst01.shtml
-- Also discussed here elsewhere. Coming off a good season but it�s his only full one in the last three or four. Is already 31, wants a multi-year deal and would cost a draft pick on top of the one we�ve already ceded for Granderson.

Didi Gregorius - Ariz http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gregodi01.shtml
-- Mariekson Julius Gregorius, LHB, 23 y/o from Amsterdam in the Netherlands, was originally Reds property before being dealt to the Snakes a year ago in a three-way deal that docked the SS Choo in the river city. But the DBacks have other options at SS (see: Owings, Chris) and may be willing to deal. Hit decently for a rookie though no RoY votes; reportedly a good glove; and although I had thought he had good legs he�s has never been a base-stealer at any level.
The MLBN crew thinks he�s a likely NYM target (for whatever that's worth).

Chris Owings - Arizona http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/owingch01.shtml
-- A 22 y/o 41st round draft pick out of HS in South Carolina got his ML cuppa late this season.
Minor league numbers are good but mainly in hitting environments (Cal Lg + AAA Reno) and much less so in between at sea-level AA Mobile. It�s his presence that reportedly makes Gregorius available so I�m guessing they like the glove a whole lot. #3 DBacks prospect (and top position player) this winter according to BA. Snakes have been active so far this winter and just dealt their next best prospect, 3B Matt Davidson, to the White Sox for closer Addison Reed.

Elvis Andrus - Texas http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/andruel01.shtml
-- Very strange situation. Is probably the one top young player signed to a long-term pre-arb deal that looks shaky in the early going. Toss in the fact that the Rangers have a better/younger one ready to go maybe makes him more available. Still only 23, the catch is that his contract runs through age 33 and for some heavy numbers by the end of the deal.

Nick Franklin - Seattle http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/frankni01.shtml
-- 23 y/o by next spring w/400 ML ABs under his belt. The presence of Brad Miller makes his availability possible but the crew at MLBN questioned his ability to remain at SS.

Brad Miller - Seattle http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/millebr02.shtml
-- 24 y/o 2nd round pick in 2011 out of Clemson, apparently is considered the better SS of the two Mariners. REAL GOOD minor lg numbers from his late 2011 debut in A ball right thru to his AA + AAA in 2013 before his mid-year call-up.


And then of course there's the status quo. Ruben is still young and has shown that he's capable of better than what we saw in 2013 - but he's also the guy who lost playing time to Omar Quintanilla even after he got healthy.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Gregorious IIRC is one of those guys considered more toolsy than result-y but those tools were on display when he got the chance to play. Question I guess is how for real he is.

Does Pittsburgh have a shortstop they wanna deal off? They apparently are in on the Ike talks again.

[nymr83]

What would you give the D-bags if Gregorious were available? this is a guy who wont even see arbitration for 3 years so it wont be cheap. Is Montero available for him? I dont know if I'd do it but thats probably the minimum

[Edgy MD]

Thanks for launching this thread. Among other things, spurs me to finish that chart I've been laying out. Please correct me if I got any of this wrong.

2013 Guys	Age in '14	Level	G at ss	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+
Omar Quintanilla	32	MLB	92	359	.222	.306	.283	.589	70
		AAA	43	148	.333	.419	.484	.903	139
Ruben Tejada	24	MLB	55	227	.202	.259	.260	.519	49
		AAA	58	269	.288	.337	.379	.716	90
		RK	3	10	.333	.400	.444	.844	155
Justin Turner	29	MLB	18	86	.280	.319	.385	.704	100
		AA	2	17	.400	.471	.533	1.004	180
		A+	1	1	.000	.000	.000	.000	-100
		SS A	2	12	.300	.417	.400	.817	152
		RK	0	5	.200	.200	.000	.200	-38
Wilfredo Tovar	22	MLB	7	19	.200	.294	.200	.494	45
		AA	128	486	.263	.323	.340	.663	86
Jordany Valdespin	26	MLB	1	144	.188	.250	.316	.566	60
		AAA	0	67	.466	.537	.759	1.296	240

2014 Leading Internal Candidates

Tejada

Tovar

2014 Potential Position Switchers	Age in '14	Level	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+
Wilmer Flores (under the craziest of circumstances)	21	MLB	227	.211	.248	.295	.542	54
		AAA	463	.321	.357	.531	.887	133

2014 Fringey Internal Candidates	Age in '14	Level	G at ss	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+
Reese Havens	27	AAA	0	109	.237	.312	.330	.642	71
Rylan Sandoval	26	AAA	3	119	.327	.378	.509	.887	133
	26	A+	4	247	.243	.309	.320	.629	82
Daniel Muno	25	AA	17	561	.249	.384	.379	.762	114

You Snooze, You Lose	Age in '14	Level	G at ss	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	Signed By:Years	$$	Note
Brendan Ryan	32	MLB	101	349	.197	.255	.273	.528	51	Yankees2	$5 million
Derek Jeter	40	MLB	13	73	.190	.288	.254	.542	51	Yankees1	$12 million
Yunel Escobar	30	MLB	153	578	.256	.332	.366	.698	97	Rays1	$5 million
Rafael Furcal	36	MLB (2012)	120	531	.261	.325	.346	.671	85	Marlins1	$3.5 million
Jhonny Peralta	32	MLB	106	448	.303	.358	.457	.815	119	Cardinals4	$53 million
Clint Barmes	35	MLB	106	330	.211	.249	.309	.558	58	Pirates1	$2 million
Nick Punto	36	MLB	49	335	.255	.328	.327	.655	87	Athletics1	$2.75 million

Remaining Free Agents	Age in '14	Level	G at ss	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	Note
Stephen Drew	31	MLB	124	501	.253	.333	.443	.777	111	Received Qualfying Offer
		AA	5	23	.200	.261	.450	.711	95
C�sar Izturis	34	MLB	29	142	.209	.259	.271	.530	46
�lex Gonz�lez	37	MLB	3	118	.177	.203	.230	.433	18
John McDonald	39	MLB	6	77	.116	.197	.174	.371	6	Played for 4 MLB Teams!
		AAA	6	37	.250	.324	.294	.618	66	And one more in the minors!
Omar Quintanilla	32	MLB	92	359	.222	.306	.283	.589	70
		AAA	43	148	.333	.419	.484	.903	139

[Edgy MD]

Forgot THE MAN.

Minor League Signees	Age in '14	Level	G at ss	PA	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+
Anthony Seratelli	31	AAA	3	487	.273	.395	.413	.808	115

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Nymr83 wrote: What would you give the D-bags if Gregorious were available? this is a guy who wont even see arbitration for 3 years so it wont be cheap. Is Montero available for him? I dont know if I'd do it but thats probably the minimum

Yeah, maybe this is where you get a third team involved. I can surrender Ike to the Bucs for a prospect, and include him (or Dilson Hererra) with Montero and say, Nieuwenhuis or Den Dekker to AZ.

Maybe they take Tejada? Who knows.

[Edgy MD]

Seeing that list and how the market has played out, it lends some credit to the Mets still standing around with their dance card unsigned. The Yankees have dropped $17 million and, if recent stats suggest anything, may have ended up with next to nothing.

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: What would you give the D-bags if Gregorious were available? this is a guy who wont even see arbitration for 3 years so it wont be cheap. Is Montero available for him? I dont know if I'd do it but thats probably the minimum

I suspect it'll take young pitching. They'll ask for Syndergaard and the Mets will say no, at which point it remains to be seen whether either side will walk away from an offer of a lesser arm. Do the Mets want a SS badly enough to offer 'anybodybut' and/or do other teams value the secondary guys enough? Or maybe the whole thing expands into a package where a pitcher gets paired with one of the defensive CFs for a SS + something or other.
Probably a similar scenario for Owings and either of the Seattle guys.

Or maybe it's none of that ... what the fuck do I know.

[Frayed Knot]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Does Pittsburgh have a shortstop they wanna deal off? They apparently are in on the Ike talks again.

They had Clint Barmes, John McDonald, and Jordy Mercer playing there last season - but I'm not all that interested in any of them.

They're prolly in on Ike talks because Garrett Jones just signed a FA deal with Miami and Justin Morneau inked one w/Colorado

[ashie62]

I'm partial to Gregorious. I can only guess they want starting pitching and for sure they are not getting Syndergaard.

Maybe we get a Ruben sandwich for 2014 and abstain, you never know..

[smg58]

Hardy (and Asdrubal Cabrera in Cleveland) will look more interesting to me next season than they do now.

I think Miller is staying in Seattle. Franklin has his bags packed, but I don't see him as a SS. I still might gamble if the M's sell him for pennies on the dollar, but I'm not holding my breath.

Elvis Andrus has only exceeded an OPS+ of 90 once. Ruben Tejada has done it twice. Caveat emptor.

Gregorius is OK. He has the potential to be better than OK if he learns to hit major-league lefties, but note the "if" in that statement. He wasn't any more highly regarded a prospect in 2013 than Montero is likely to be now (plus we might need Montero too), so I'd be careful with what I offer.

I don't see why a third-round pick for Drew would be a dealbreaker. If we have the money to do it he's my top choice.

[Edgy MD]

Starting to feel more and more like the statements that the team is ready to go with Tejada are as much bluffing as they are preparing the fan base for disappointment. I mean, they have to bring in some meaningful alternatives, if not because of this 2013 stuggles, but because he finished the season with a broken leg.

They might accomplish nothing in pursuit of Drew except submitting a bid for another team to exceed, but they will almost certainly at least either bring in a cheap vet or trade for a pre-arbitration prospect they see as league-ready.

[Ceetar]

they'll clearly bring in something, since it's like Tejada, Tovar, and then whoever they draft this year on the depth chart.

[ashie62]

They do say they are comfortable with Tejada and Ruben just needs to work on his conditioning and work ethic..

Don't we all...

[Centerfield]

It just boggles my mind that with SS up in the air like this that we would non-tender Justin Turner.

Whatever.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: It just boggles my mind that with SS up in the air like this that we would non-tender Justin Turner. Whatever.

They have plenty of time. It's not like they're losing games while not carrying a barely acceptable SS backup guy with a penchant for whipped cream pies.

[Edgy MD]

Turner was a terrible shortstop. He probably improved with is his reps in 2013, but he was like worst-in-the-league bad. He didn't help the team there.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Turner was a terrible shortstop. He probably improved with is his reps in 2013, but he was like worst-in-the-league bad. He didn't help the team there.

Actually, of all guys with 50AB at SS (how many Turner got) he was 49/59 in OPS.

Q was 45 and Tejada as 57.

[Edgy MD]

I was trying to speak to his general defensive aptitude.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I was trying to speak to his general defensive aptitude.

and I was just being a numbers nerd cause I was curious. I don't think I can filter b-r play index on UZR or anything. not that 110 innings are really meaningful.

I'm sure there are a handful of other guys that played a dozen or so games at SS that were just as bad (perhaps one that's been playing there, in this city, with the same number, for years) in the field, but Turner is definitely near the bottom.

[seawolf17]

Come on, Justin Turner was not the future of this team. I liked him, but let's get real.

Tejada's three closest b-r comparisons through age 23 are Cesar Izturis, Bucky Dent, and Luis Aparicio. Let's give him at least one full year to see if can really be something.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: I'm sure there are a handful of other guys that played a dozen or so games at SS that were just as bad (perhaps one that's been playing there, in this city, with the same number, for years) in the field, but Turner is definitely near the bottom.

That's why I was putting the "like" qualifier in there. I have no idea if he's the worst and I really don't want to spend the time trying to prove it --- look at the less-than-explosive response I got to my frankly excellent work on the Morales-vs.-Duda-vs.-Davis question --- but I feel confident that he's down there with the fakirs and phonies when it comes to shortstop defense. It's silly, but I personally would feel better defensively with Wright at short.

[ashie62]

seawolf17 wrote: Come on, Justin Turner was not the future of this team. I liked him, but let's get real. Tejada's three closest b-r comparisons through age 23 are Cesar Izturis, Bucky Dent, and Luis Aparicio. Let's give him at least one full year to see if can really be something.

I believe this may become reality. Nothing else is popping up at SS..not yet anyway...

Justin Turner is a lifetime backup at best..

[Edgy MD]

Holy smokes. I can't read it because ESPN is block'd at work (where's my smart phone?), but Rubin just posted and article titled "Alderson: Flores at shortstop not dead?" Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants if the Mets had a stealth plan all along to defy the defensive dismissals and go with a low-range/offense first option nobody at all had considered?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Say what? The Mets abandoned using Wilmer Flores at shortstop after the 2011 season in the minors because of a lack of lateral mobility. But Sandy Alderson tells MLB.com that Flores might get a look back at his natural position this spring training. After spending time at a nutrition and agility camp near Ann Arbor, Mich., this offseason, Alderson apparently wants to see if Flores has picked up any range. (He'll need to pick up a lot to convince scouts he could handle shortstop, even in a backup role.) �I don�t want to place too much stock on four weeks of conditioning, but this is a guy who�s never really had the opportunity to develop himself physically the way players here in the United States do, who have a season and then an offseason,� Alderson told the web site. �He�s never had an offseason. He�s always played. So this is a different type of offseason for him -- one in which he�s been able to invest in his career. We�ll see how it pays off for him. �I wouldn�t say [Flores to shortstop] is dead. I think that one of the things we want to see is how well he has done with his training regimen in Michigan. Before this offseason, I�m not sure he ever had any sort of structured, regimented conditioning program. The work that they have done on speed and agility and quickness, etc., may have an impact on his ability to play certain positions -- including second base and conceivably even shortstop. But right now, that�s all speculation.� Flores last played shortstop in 2011 with Class A St. Lucie. If he makes the team, he likely either needs to beat out Omar Quintanilla, Wilfredo Tovar and Anthony Seratelli as a backup shortstop or beat out Josh Satin to back up the corner infield spots. The best bet: Flores opens the season at Triple-A Las Vegas ... not seeing time at shortstop.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Holy smokes. I can't read it because ESPN is block'd at work (where's my smart phone?), but Rubin just posted and article titled "Alderson: Flores at shortstop not dead?" Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants if the Mets had a stealth plan all along to defy the defensive dismissals and go with a low-range/offense first option nobody at all had considered?

And Terry Collins floating Eric Young as leadoff bs. Rubin admittedly is posting this because it's like a car wreck and you'll click. It still says January on my calendar.

[Edgy MD]

I'm sorry. I promise not to talk about anything.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm sorry. I promise not to talk about anything.

no no, we can talk about it. That's fun. Flores to SS is humorous. Trying to figure out how to make Duda work in LF is funny. It's acting like this stuff is even remotely likely that's sorta silly. Reporting it like they're talking about it any more seriously than we are.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I do like that they're open to that. Flores appears to me to be way too clumsy to be a real shortstop but young position players who can hit are things the Mets could really use so I hope they can find a role for Flores.

I'm tellin ya, I think trades are going to have to come still.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I'm sorry. I promise not to talk about anything. no no, we can talk about it. That's fun. Flores to SS is humorous. Trying to figure out how to make Duda work in LF is funny. It's acting like this stuff is even remotely likely that's sorta silly. Reporting it like they're talking about it any more seriously than we are.

I don't know about remote. It's more likely after Alderson's statement than it was before, and it's completely (almost literally) out of left field, which makes it exciting to me, even if it doesn't come to pass (and Duda did play left field! and right too!)), because I like that my team is considering game-changing maneuvers.

When I treat it like a fait accompli, please let me know.