Mets manager in the Hall

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Heyman is reporting that former Mets manager Joe Torre has been elected to the Hall of Fame, along with Tony LaRussa and Bobby Cox.

Marvin Miller, screwed again.

[MFS62]

Too bad about Marvin Miller.
Cox and LaRussa, who also made it, were good, smart managers.
Torre had Mariano Rivera, who made him look smart. When he managed in the NL, he was neither good nor smart.

Later

[Benjamin Grimm]

I suppose LaRussa was inevitable, but I really hate what he did to the game regarding the use of bullpens.

[Edgy MD]

Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Dave Parker
Dave Concepcion
Steve Garvey
Dan Quisenberry
G. Steinbrenner
Marvin Miller
Tony La Russa
Joe Torre
Bobby Cox
Billy Martin

That's a pretty strong ballot, and I guess we've all got to breathe a sigh of relief that Steinbrenner didn't get through.

It's really starting to look like the Vet's committee is treating vetting managers as their most important job, and with four managers with strong resumes on the ballot, this was the most likely --- and probably most sensible --- outcome.

The Current Composition of the Veterans Committee

Hall of Fame Players:

• Rod Carew
  
• Carlton Fisk
  
• Joe Morgan
  
• Paul Molitor
  
• Phil Niekro
  
• Frank Robinson

Hall of Fame Managers:

• Whitey Herzog
  
• Tommy Lasorda

Executives

• Paul Beeston
  
• Andy McPhail
  
• Dave Montgomery
  
• Jerry Reinsdorf

"Historians"

• Steve Hirdt (Elias)
  
• Bruce Jenkins (San Francisco Chronicle columnist)
  
• Jack O�Connell (BBWAA chair/secretary/treasurer/whatevs, covered the Mets in the eighties)
  
• Jim Reeves (I dunno)

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: Jim Reeves (I dunno)

Not quite sure how he got into the HoF voting, but "Gentleman" Jim Reeves had a whole string of country and gospel hits over the years.
Maybe somebody with Cooperstown connections is a big fan.

bpi8Bek6jdM

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Looking at this committee, how in the hell does Miller NOT get elected?

The six players surely understand his impact on the game, as should the two veteran managers. That should be 8 votes. I understand the executives -- especially McPhail and Reisndorf -- not voting for him. But the historians? That's incredible to me.

The Current Composition of the Veterans Committee Hall of Fame Players: Rod Carew Carlton Fisk Joe Morgan Paul Molitor Phil Niekro Frank Robinson Hall of Fame Managers: Whitey Herzog Tommy Lasorda Executives Paul Beeston Andy McPhail Dave Montgomery Jerry Reinsdorf "Historians" Steve Hirdt (Elias) Bruce Jenkins (San Francisco Chronicle columnist) Jack O�Connell (BBWAA chair/secretary/treasurer/whatevs, covered the Mets in the eighties) Jim Reeves (I dunno)

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Jim Reeves (I dunno) Not quite sure how he got into the HoF voting, but "Gentleman" Jim Reeves had a whole string of country and gospel hits over the years. Maybe somebody with Cooperstown connections is a big fan. bpi8Bek6jdM

Jimmy Reeves was also a minor league pitcher before severing his sciatic nerve. But seeing as how he's been dead since 1964, I don't see how he'd be a useful member of the Veteran's Committee.

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Looking at this committee, how in the hell does Miller NOT get elected?

Seems simple enough to me. Enough of those guys continue to be beholden to the offices of MLB in the living they make and they have perfectly rational professional reasons not to elevate a symbol the owners' adversaries. It takes 75% of the committee's votes to get elected and that's not easy.

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: Jimmy Reeves was also a minor league pitcher before severing his sciatic nerve. But seeing as how he's been dead since 1964, I don't see how he'd be a useful member of the Veteran's Committee.

Well, seeing as how the Vets committee has long specialized in electing dead guys, who better?

[Vic Sage]

Seems simple enough to me. Enough of those guys continue to be beholden to the offices of MLB in the living they make and they have perfectly rational professional reasons not to elevate a symbol the owners' adversaries. It takes 75% of the committee's votes to get elected and that's not easy.

That means Miller needed at least 12 of the 16 votes. So assuming all 4 execs chose not to give Miller their vote, that means he had to get everybody else's vote to get in. Assuming the 6 players and 4 historians all vote for him, that still leaves Lasorda and Herzog as the swing votes. As managers, they might have felt they were occasionally undermined by actions of the union, and as marginal players, they got little advantage from the union, and as "ambassadors of the game"-type guys in their retirement, likely dependent on the good graces of the powers that be, i can see at least 1 (if not both) choosing to ignore Mr. Miller's candidacy.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Tommy Lasorda strikes me as one of those guys who'd make it his business to be sure guys like Miller don't get in.

[Gwreck]

ESPN says that Miller got "no more than 6 votes."

Marvin Miller, the pioneering head of the players' association from 1966 to 1981, was rejected for admission to the Hall for the sixth time he appeared on a committee ballot. He fell one vote short of induction in 2010 and received no more than six votes this year.

[Vic Sage]

If i had to guess, Miller probably got votes from 5 of the 6 players (there's always one... Joe Morgan, i'd bet), and only 1 of the 4 "historians" (i.e., hack beat writers who resent the modern big-money ballplayers)... Steve Hirdt, most likely.

[Frayed Knot]

Some of the players, according to leaked votes from past years, haven't always been as pro-Miller as you'd think.
Some (Reggie Jackson) view the HoF as a should-be players only affair. Others won't necessarily go that far, but have stated that they don't think it's their (the players) place to judge non-players and so wind up leaving blank ballots for anyone who didn't wear a jock for a living.

The Vets committee was then re-re-done to supposedly root out those type of attitudes, but who knows ...

[Edgy MD]

So there seems to be at least a little grumbling that this class of managers from the veterans committee represents an evolving double standard, as the Hall is (for now anyway) keeping out the likes of Canseco, McGwire, Clemens, and (projecting) Giambi, and Alex Rodriguez, but rewarding LaRussa and Torre. The thinking goes that if the record is discounted or adjusted or called into question for performances by players apparently bolstered by PEDs, why should those same performances be unsullied on the manager's record, particularly since fair play and sportsmanship and integrity is, in theory anyhow, part of a manager's portfolio?

Sportsmanship is certainly one of the HOF's explicit qualifying factors, and it can be argued that those managers among others capitalized by looking the other way or at least remaining blissfully (but deliberately) ignorant of what went on in and around their clubhouses.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Hey, you think it's EASY managing a clubhouse full of roid-raged players?

Those are very good points. How many of Tony's rings are roid-tainted.

[Frayed Knot]

Of course some of those making that argument about the managers are ignoring that angle when it comes to Marvin Miller.
Sure he was no longer in power when the steroid era rolled around. But he wasn't shy in his retirement about railing from the sidelines against the players agreeing to ANY testing and one school of thought is that his objections kept Fehr and his team of then-current MLBAPA honchos from agreeing to testing, or bans, or even the whole concept of steroids as being an issue for much longer than they might have on their own.

Not saying this should disqualify Miller from the Hall, only that when one starts to go down that road they might not always like where they end up.

[Edgy MD]

OK, then, we have an evolving triple standard.