Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Digging out those old Jerry Grote game videos for studying might demonstrate that the grumpy one was the greatest Mets catcher ever, and perhaps the main reason why in Grote's prime, his average to weak hitting Mets competed for the division every single season.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9275754/studying-art-pitch-framing-catchers-such-francisco-cervelli-chris-stewart-jose-molina-others *







* Grote-free thought provoking article

[Lefty Specialist]

No.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

No comment.

[scoffs]
[Lifts leg, farts]

[Zvon]

Is this an alt reality where Piazza was never a Met? Mikes bat trumps Jerrys defense. Defensively, yes, I think so. And he was grumpy. I didn't like him cause he got all grumpy on me once. He told me to fuck off. I was like 11 or 12. I thought :what a dick! I should have said that. I would now. But then I just looked like a crushed little kid.

But he was probably one of the best catchers of his time, defensively, Met or no. And I've read what you guys have said about his hitting but lemme tell ya, he was clutch. In the biggest spot imaginable he would get his bat on the ball. He would drive it thru a gap. When we really needed a big hit in a close game from the bottom of the lineup, I didn't mind seeing him up at all. He was never considered by anybody to be a hole in the lineup. That Met team knew to make up for his offensive shortcomings in other areas, because what he brought defensively, really, was priceless.

[RealityChuck]

In a team with two Hall of Famers in the category, I think not.

But Grote was a great catcher. Defensively, he was excellent, and the success of Mets pitchers in that era had much to do with his game calling (and Rube Walker's coaching). His hitting was adequate, but this was a time (like today) that a catcher hitting .250 was a major asset to a team.

Obscure fact: Grote still holds the major league record for consecutive putouts by a catcher. Any serious Mets fan knows when he did it.

[Lefty Specialist]

Seaver's 10 consecutive strikeouts probably have something to do with it. Either that, or there were a crapload of pop-ups behind the plate one day.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Jeff and I discussed it, we're going with Stoins!

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Grote to the max!

[metirish]

I dunno, he didn't have Jason Phillips speed.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I voted for Duffy, I never get my way!

[Guest themetfairy]

Kong76 wrote: I voted for Duffy, I never get my way!

We need to bring back the Jeff Wilpon Through History thread....

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm not taking any position here ... I simply posted the framing article link for discussion. Still, if the author's premise is credible ... if Jose Molina is worth more runs to his team than Giancarlo Stanton ... then the subject, the idea that Grote might be the Mets greatest catcher isn't so easily dismissable. Johnny Bench is still the benchmark for defensive catchers (benchmark! lol, guffaw, guffaw, rotflmao) and there's still a faction, a clique, a posse, whatever, that claims that Grote was even better than Bench behind the plate. BTW, in 1973, Grote was on the disabled list for about two months. The 1973 82-79 Mets (.509 W-L pct.) were 21-33 during Grote's inactive stint, and 61-46 otherwise (.570). That .570 W-L pct. prorates to 92 wins over 162 games. FWIW. Perhaps a new baseball paradigm is in order where the catcher is as valuable as an NFL quarterback. Sheesh, I might have to re-assess Gary Carter's legacy, who I think is historically, the most overrated Met and the Derek Jeter of the franchise.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Oh, the camera is rolling Michael. Smile! Jeff thinks he still 9 years old. He voted for Duffy
because that was his favorite F-Troop character growing up.

[dinosaur jesus]

Grote is from San Antonio, just like my father, and about the same age. So yes, in my book he's the greatest. Jerry Grote, my red-ass surrogate dad.

[Guest d'Kong76]

batmagadanleadoff wrote:

Cool picture! Makes me want a yoohoo!

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Don't get me wrong-- I'm not fart noise-ing on the entire idea, just the potential conclusion. I mean, I get what things like UZR and Plus/Minus actually measure, even if the exact how is a little beyond my ken; I need a little more under-the-hood information before I can weight the matter properly.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Someone needs
a yoohoo!

[batmagadanleadoff]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Don't get me wrong-- I'm not fart noise-ing on the entire idea, just the potential conclusion. I mean, I get what things like UZR and Plus/Minus actually measure, even if the exact how is a little beyond my ken; I need a little more under-the-hood information before I can weight the matter properly.

Well yeah ... that's the whole point. One can accept the f/x technology and its practically infallible ability to determine whether a pitch is a ball or a strike. I think you yourself have been linking to that data for a few years, now. But from there, is it a leap of faith to believe some of the findings ... that a catcher can influence whether a ball is called a strike or a strike called a ball, and to the extent cited in the article? The effects of pitch framing aren't new. An umpire can't see the whole plate because the catcher blocks his view. This was always known, going back to the 19th century. But those findings .. that's a whole nuther animal.

Of course, even so, when it comes to speculating whether f/x technology can prove whether or not Grote was the best Mets catcher, we're clearly in who would win a footrace between Batman and Aquaman territory, because we'll never know for sure.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Guest

[Guest d'Kong76]

[dgwphotography]

Piazza's bat trumps Grote's defense.

That having been said, Grote was one of the most underrated catchers in our time. Bench himself said that if he were on the same team with Grote, he (Bench) would have been playing at third.

[G-Fafif]

I don't remember any Met pitcher ever going out of his way to praise Piazza for raising their game. Not saying none ever did (or that Piazza didn't), I just don't remember it. (They certainly praised his hitting on their behalf -- Leiter did so in his videotaped piece for the Piazza ceremonies two weeks ago.) Seaver went out of his way in his Cooperstown induction speech to thank his three primary catchers: Grote, Bench and Fisk. He knew and we know there's nothing incidental about that grouping whereas I'm guessing the non-Mets fan might think "two Hall of Famers and who?"

It's a great question as regards what catchers do and how much they hit and what it all means. X Factor about Piazza, to my thinking at least, is he not only hit incredibly well for a catcher but he made up for the lack of slugging that the Mets weren't getting from their alleged power positions in left and right.

[Vic Sage]

Top 10 Mets Catchers (games):

All-stars:
1. Mike Piazza (826)
2. Jerry Grote (1176)
3. Gary Carter (566)
4. Todd Hundley (745)
5. John Stearns (698)
Not all-stars:
6. Ron Hodges (446)
7. Paul Lo Duca (231)
8. Todd Pratt (206)
9. Mackey Sasser (261)
10. Chris Cannizzaro (236)

other catchers with over 162g:
Duffy Dyer 326
Josh Thole 279
Ramon Castro 256
Vance Wilson 255
Charlie O'Brien 224
Barry Lyons 183
Alex Trevi�o 179
Brian Schneider 166

[batmagadanleadoff]

Top 10 Mets Catchers (games): All-stars: 1. Mike Piazza (826) 2. Jerry Grote (1176) 3. Gary Carter (566) 4. Todd Hundley (745) 5. John Stearns (698) Not all-stars: 6. Ron Hodges (446) 7. Paul Lo Duca (231) 8. Todd Pratt (206) 9. Mackey Sasser (261) 10. Chris Cannizzaro (236) other catchers with over 162g: Duffy Dyer 326 Josh Thole 279 Ramon Castro 256 Vance Wilson 255 Charlie O'Brien 224 Barry Lyons 183 Alex Trevi�o 179 Brian Schneider 166

Actually, Lo Duca was an all-star.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Major_League_Baseball_All-Star_Game

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Well, yeah... nominally.

[batmagadanleadoff]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Well, yeah... nominally.

More deserving than Stearns. Lo Duca deserved it in 2006. It was his career season, at not a bad one at that. Too bad SmallBalls had him squaring around to bunt every single time Reyes got on base, even though the best middle of the order in baseball was next.

[Edgy MD]

The guy had seven sacs and 39 doubles (a record pace, if prorated to a non-catcher-game-load). He must've swing some time.

[Vic Sage]

Actually, Lo Duca was an all-star.

My bad. I remembered him as an all-star for LA and FL, but forgot about that one in NY.

[Vic Sage]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Well, yeah... nominally. More deserving than Stearns. Lo Duca deserved it in 2006. It was his career season, at not a bad one at that...

Stearns was an all-star in his own right, 4 times actually (which didn't include his best year, 1978), with at least 2 of those seasons putting up an OPS+ better than LoDuca's all-star year, as well as accumulating a career OPS+ as a Met 10 points higher than LoDuca. Stearns did have a down year in `79 (garnering an unearned A-S appearance, likely based on his `78 performance and the fact that somebody on the Mets had to be picked). But Stearns was a better catcher for the Mets, both on a single-season basis, and on a career basis, than LoDuca.

[Edgy MD]

I think 1979 was more about the paucity of quality catchers than the paucity of quality Mets, Mazzilli being at the height of his powers and arguably deserving of the ASG MVP that year.

Bob Boone was the starter, with Bench and Carter and Simmons also making the team, but as Bench didn't appear and it's unlikely that Boone won an election over Bench and Carter, I'm concluding that Bench was voted as the starter, but neither he nor Simmons were healthy, so Stearns got an invite.

Forget All-Star Lo Duca? Might as well forget the moon and sky.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Those black caps are just the worst.