Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm with you on the part about Stearns being, historically, a greater Mets catcher than Lo Duca. But most of Stearns's all-star selections were questionable. In '77, Stearns was, at best, and generously, the 6th best NL catcher, behind Ted Simmons, Johnny Bench, Bob Boone, Gary Carter and Joe Ferguson.

In 1980, he was perhaps the 5th best NL catcher, interchangeable with Tim Blackwell. The gap between Stearns and the top four, Carter, Tenace, Simmons and Bench was considerable.

Stearns's 1979 selection was a joke, right? There were some excellent hitting catchers in '79, including the usual suspects Carter, Bench & Simmons and also Bob Boone and Gene Tenace.

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Those black caps are just the worst.

Boy would I love it if not a single day went by on this forum without someone commenting about what an awful player Rey Ordonez, was, what a scumbag owner Fred Wilpon is and how goddamn ugly those black uniforms and caps were.

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I'm with you on the part about Stearns being, historically, a greater Mets catcher than Lo Duca. But most of Stearns's all-star selections were questionable. In '77, Stearns was, at best, and generously, the 6th best NL catcher, behind Ted Simmons, Johnny Bench, Bob Boone, Gary Carter and Joe Ferguson. In 1980, he was perhaps the 5th best NL catcher, interchangeable with Tim Blackwell. The gap between Stearns and the top four, Carter, Tenace, Simmons and Bench was considerable. Stearns's 1979 selection was a joke, right? There were some excellent hitting catchers in '79, including the usual suspects Carter, Bench & Simmons and also Bob Boone and Gene Tenace.

And that's just based on single season stats. If you're also factoring in careers, there's no way Stearns's career measured up to those of Bench, Simmons, Tenace or Gary Carter, who was young, but with a career that began at about the same time that Stearns began his. Carter and Stearns were true contemporaries, at least until Stearns retired.

One problem with looking back at season stats, though, is that all-star selections are made primarily based on the player's early season stats. So there's that to consider, too.

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I'm with you on the part about Stearns being, historically, a greater Mets catcher than Lo Duca. But most of Stearns's all-star selections were questionable. In '77, Stearns was, at best, and generously, the 6th best NL catcher, behind Ted Simmons, Johnny Bench, Bob Boone, Gary Carter and Joe Ferguson. In 1980, he was perhaps the 5th best NL catcher, interchangeable with Tim Blackwell. The gap between Stearns and the top four, Carter, Tenace, Simmons and Bench was considerable. Stearns's 1979 selection was a joke, right? There were some excellent hitting catchers in '79, including the usual suspects Carter, Bench & Simmons and also Bob Boone and Gene Tenace.

Well, I've been through 1979 (and Stearns had terrible early season stats that year), but by limiting your arguments against him to his modest offensive prowess, you tend ignore your own thesis in this thread. Managers loved his catching game like they loved Grote's. Herzog openly lusted after the man, and considered a battery of Neil Allen and John Stearns unstealable on --- a lust that blinded him so deeply that he made the most regrettable trade of his career years later by acquiring Allen.

As for the Mets, they dealt Grote himself, explicitly stating that they didn't need two starting catchers, and so Grote was the odd man out. (This was the same interview, I believe, in which they damningly stated they would be in the market for a backup catcher because, while they liked Hodges, they liked him as a third stringer only.)

Stearns and Carter ignited a brawl after a plate collision the first week of 1979. Can't remember who got the better of it. Managers remember that crap too.

[Gwreck]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Boy would I love it if not a single day went by on this forum without someone commenting about what an awful player Rey Ordonez, was, what a scumbag owner Fred Wilpon is and how goddamn ugly those black uniforms and caps were.

Don't forget how shitty Citi Field's scoreboard looks

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: ... but by limiting your arguments against him to his modest offensive prowess, you tend ignore your own thesis in this thread.

I don't have a thesis. I linked to that framing article just to stir thing up a little. But I'm not automatically dismissive of the framing piece, either. I remain open-minded.

But there's no evidence that I know of, not even anecdotal, that suggests that Stearns was an above average pitch framer. I don't say that there isn't any evidence, just that I don't know of any. But even so, I doubt that catchers, especially Stearns era catchers, got selected to an ASG based on their pitch framing abilities.

[Edgy MD]

No, but his general defensive game was certainly highly respected.

[G-Fafif]

I distinctly remember Stearns as a last-minute replacement -- really last-minute -- in 1979. He was the sole Met rep in '77, '80 and '82. I'm happy as hell to call him a "four-time All-Star," because it's true and he was one of my favorite Mets of his era, but his greatest credential was playing for a team that usually didn't have an obvious selection.

Agreed '78 was his best year. Swan's, too, though each was left by the side of the road as the Zachry Express zoomed to San Diego that summer.

[Guest vtmet]

I guess that the answer to the question depends on what a catcher's job is...is it to be the best hitter on the team while being a defensive liability? Or is it to help your pitchers perform better while being an offensive liability?....