Hot Seat Ike

[Ceetar]

how many times do we get on guys like Carlos Delgado for not dropping down a bunt in the obvious 'free base' situations. (But Ike, practice will ya?)

It's a GREAT idea. Don't pass up free bases if you can make it work, PLUS it affects your spray chart, meaning the more you do it, the less they overshift you, the more you can take real swings and get hits otherwise neutralized by the shift.

[Edgy MD]

I like to think he's being flip as a way of being provocative and having fun.

Last year, as his early season slump wore on, he provoked some of the writers --- "When are you going to write that I suck? When are you going to demand I be sent to Buffalo?" Strange but... whatever works for you. Keeps you centered and stuff.

Aside from the comments, I have no problems with sluggos who bunt for hits.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

You are great with the magical thinking, Ceets. Bunting vs. the shift is great idea IF you make it. Neiuwenhuis is a great choice to hit against a lefty pitcher IF he gets on.

There's a reason they are also dumb choices, you know.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: You are great with the magical thinking, Ceets. Bunting vs. the shift is great idea IF you make it. Neiuwenhuis is a great choice to hit against a lefty pitcher IF he gets on. There's a reason they are also dumb choices, you know.

If it works 4 times in 10, it's a fantastic idea.

The Kirk choice was something completely different, doesn't compare.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ike Davis isn't a .400 hitter.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ike Davis isn't a .400 hitter.

which is why if merely 4 of the bunts worked out of 10, it'd be fantastic and a probably a better option than swinging.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

/smashes head

Why would you imagine Ike Davis is a .400 bunter? Is there any evidence to support that?

[Vic Sage]

he's not even a .200 hitter.

On the crowd�s response to his bunt attempt: �The crowd gets on me no matter what. If I take a pitch [for a] strike, it�s a boo. So it doesn�t really matter. It was a smart attempt, I just didn�t execute the bunt. And it�s fun for them.�

What does he mean "it's fun for them"?" Fun? FUN? FUN?FUN?

Yeah, there's no part of watching Ike Davis play baseball this year that could even generously be considered "fun".

[metirish]

It might be a better option for Ike only because he's a squinty eyed useless hitter right now....I don't remember getting on Delgado for not dropping down a bunt.....I have a vague memory of him doing it once though.


Delgado is one one the all time great sluggers....Ike is a squinty eyed useless hitter.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: /smashes head Why would you imagine Ike Davis is a .400 bunter? Is there any evidence to support that?

There's no evidence at all to say anything at all about it. If they're over-shifting and he can do it, then HE SHOULD DO IT. If he can't, then he shouldn't, obviously. Last night wasn't a good attempt, but the logic of his quote is sound.

[Centerfield]

If you bunt you obviously cannot get an extra base hit, so the OBP would have to be significantly higher than a regular swing to make it a worthwhile gamble.

I didn't see last night's bunt attempt, so I have no idea if he can do it or not. But if he has decent bunting ability, then he should give it a try. I think it will definitely make teams think twice about overshifting.

But if he sucks, he should give it up.

In theory, I don't have a problem with bunting to try to get hits. I have a problem with bunts designed to make outs.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

The attempt was pathetic. He squared so early the fielders were already in motion by the time he fouled off his first attempt.

He then bunted the next pitch directly to the pitcher who retired him at first base easily.

There was also one out at the time, so even if he were successful he was looking at two batters to get him around to score, and just daring Buck to hit into a double play.

It was an OK idea, but badly executed, and his next trip showed why.

[Centerfield]

Yeah, Ike and the coaching staff have to be able to judge whether or not he can do it. Bunting back to the pitcher is suicide. He has to push it along the third base line so that it's either a hit or a foul ball.

Maybe they weren't booing his idea to bunt, but the fact that he sucks at doing it.

[Vic Sage]

while i agree with CF's post above, there are a few other factors to consider.

If you are a slow-footed slugger and a major RBI guy in a lineup, and you're hitting 4th-7th with not a lot of lumber coming up behind you (not an uncommon lineup situation), then the bunt not only robs the team of an opportunity for an extra based hit, it's a strategy that, even if successful, leaves the RBI to be picked up by the weakest bats in the lineup, who'll have to hit XBH because of the slugger's lack of speed. So not only does the OBP on the bunt play have to be huge to make up for the loss of SLG, there have to be some SLG bats behind him to drive him in, to have it make any sense at all.

Now in this case, Davis currently can't hit water when falling out of a boat, and he had hot hitters with power in Buck and Legares hitting behind him, so fair enough. But as a general strategy, i think it sucks, even when successful, which I think is considerably less often than we'd hope or imagine. A guy who may not have had to bunt for a hit since HS is just not going to have the technique to do it successfully with anything approaching the percentage necessary to justify it in the first place. As for its effect on the shift, I think it would be negligible due to the play's relatively high failure rate, BUT mostly due to the fact that THE OTHER TEAM WANTS YOUR HR HITTER TO BUNT! If your 30HR guy wants to swallow his bat, the other team will simply say "thank you sir, may i have another".

Ike's problems aren't the "shift". Its the fact that he can't hit for shit, i think, that's having the more significant impact.

[Edgy MD]

Unfortunately, with all the stats available to us, we don't have any readily available data on the success rate of folks bunting for a hit, or much on the success rate of guys bunting for a sacrifice even. So the argument is largely framed for all sides within the realm of speculation.

[ashie62]

It may be irrelevant when Dooder takes over 1B...

[Edgy MD]

It's relevant to last night which is what we're talking about. And it's not like Duda has made a case to be a fixture either.

Steve Garvey had a book that was his recipe for getting 200 hits per year. He wanted to be sure he had a certain number of hits each month that went to the opposite field, a certain number that he would get by bunting, a certain number for extra bases, etc. If it was a few weeks into the month and he was short in one department, he'd focus on that.

Now Garvey was a tool and all, but the logic is sound. By broadening the scope of the number of ways he could get you, he kept the pitcher and defense honest, and didn't allow them to get away with one way of going after him.

[metirish]

So anyway, my sister and her husband joined us for the game yesterday....she works in the bar scene in NYC, has for many years and knows most of the owners etc. Her very good friend is a barman at a well known Irish bar in the 60's on 1st. Ike is a regular there, not long after getting called back up he was on an almighty session, Guinness and Jamenson until 5am in the morning, and it wasn't the ASG weekend.....now, maybe they were not playing on the Monday, maybe there was a lefty going so he thinks he wouldn't be playing but if you are drinking that much it's taking several days to recover....let's say Ike is very well known the pub.

[Frayed Knot]

Well, this isn't the first time that's been suggested.
There was some veiled allusion, back in ST I think, that NYM mgmt was somewhat leery of Ike's possible "influence on younger players", or some words to that effect. That statement didn't specifically mention drinking but it certainly gave the impression that that was a possibility.

[Ceetar]

His numbers are certainly decent to good since his return..so Jameson on I guess. I know more and more ballplayers shift towards "body as a temple" nutrition and fitness diets, but i imagine there are sill hundreds that prefer to go out and party. (Don't bars in NYC close at 4?) Especially since they don't generally go to work until 6 hours after the rest of us.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Not 4 nothin but Ike's sucked since coming back. I know he's singling in the 260s and walking his way to a decent OBP but we're also back to losing regularly with him fucking up the lineup.

[metirish]

The law might say 4am but that never stopped an Irish pub from staying open.

[Ceetar]

He's hitting .261/.420/.377/.797 since being recalled.

and .302/.464/.488/.953 since the break.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I know.

He still stinks.

[metirish]

Softest numbers ever , throw them away and look with your eye....he's useless.

[Ceetar]

they're 14-13 since his recall. They were 12-12 without him.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Stinks!

[Vic Sage]

.302/.464/.488/.953 since the break

That's about 60 PAs, during which he's had 1 HR and 5 2B and 7 RBI.
So, first of all, if this is the guy you're counting on to provided power to the middle of your lineup, you are good and truly fucked.
Secondly, any projection or assessment of his future production or value based on such a limited sample size is foolish.

But you did the same thing with Lagares in the other thread, where you said about his turnaround over the last month:

Yeah, it's gone on a little too long for me to doubt now.

Too long for doubt? No, he just had an excellent July. There's PLENTY of room for doubt.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: .302/.464/.488/.953 since the break That's about 60 PAs, during which he's had 1 HR and 5 2B and 7 RBI. So, first of all, if this is the guy you're counting on to provided power to the middle of your lineup, you are good and truly fucked. Secondly, any projection or assessment of his future production or value based on such a limited sample size is foolish. But you did the same thing with Lagares in the other thread, where you said about his turnaround over the last month: Yeah, it's gone on a little too long for me to doubt now. Too long for doubt? No, he just had an excellent July. There's PLENTY of room for doubt.

first of all, 6 XBH is good. (projects to 60ish over a full season. That's good. And more of the doubles will shake out as HR) 7 RBI is irrelevant. The first sample is a bigger sample too, where he's been on base .420. Which is very very good. It represents not swinging at crap and getting himself out. Maintain that and he should start getting some better pitches to hit, which might the .488 SLG in the second more recent sample might represent. Yes, it's a small sample, but in the biggest sample he's shown ability and if this recent stretch is a sign he's getting back to that, it's meaningful in that regard.

Not doubting Lagares is a major leaguer is a long way from believing he's the answer in CF next year.

[metirish]

And more of the doubles will shake out as HR)

That's gold right there...another Jamenson for that man please.