If you're under 35, the worst everyday MLB hitter you saw

[batmagadanleadoff]

was .....
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Rey Ordonez.

http://www.overthemonster.com/2012/1/24/2729583/jose-iglesias-rey-ordonez-bobby-valentine-red-sox

[G-Fafif]

His career started a few years before the major offensive outburst affectionately referred to by some as the "steroid era," and shuttered around the same time that era in baseball's history came to a close.

His career started three years into that era, in 1996 -- same year Brady Anderson socked 52 homers, Todd Hundley walloped 41 and Rey Ordonez smacked as many as Paul Wilson (1).

[Edgy MD]

Doug Flynnigan, and I loved him for it.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy DC wrote: Doug Flynnigan, and I loved him for it.

I'd be impressed with anyone under 35 who can remember seeing Doug Flynn hit.

(I'm almost 50, and I can't remember Doug Flynn hitting)

[metirish]

Loved Ordonez , shitty hitter though, I tell you else was shitty, Burnitz and Roger Cedano......nice bodies , shitty bats.

[G-Fafif]

No. 8 hitters twenty years apart, they were freaking RBI machines, relatively speaking: Flynn with 61 in 1979, Ordonez with 60 in 1999. Flynn's total was good for fourth on the 1979 Mets; Ordonez's placed him fifth (more than anybody not named Piazza, Ventura, Alfonzo or Olerud).

I've been told RBIs are not really meaningful metric of offensive production. But they sure are fun when they materialize off the bats of guys like these.

[batmagadanleadoff]

metirish wrote: Loved Ordonez , shitty hitter though, I tell you else was shitty, Burnitz and Roger Cedano......nice bodies , shitty bats.

Rey might be my most hated Met. In my twisted mind, I also blame Rey for the Melvin Mora to the Orioles fiasco. Ordonez breaking his wrist that Memorial Day weekend, 2000 is one of my most beloved plays in franchise history. Well, maybe not exactly, but boy did I hate Ordonez.

[smg58]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Doug Flynnigan, and I loved him for it. I'd be impressed with anyone under 35 who can remember seeing Doug Flynn hit. (I'm almost 50, and I can't remember Doug Flynn hitting)

I have no memory of Doug Flynn hitting, either. Although thanks to Flynn, I learned at a young age that when a team's front office goes out of their way to draw attention to a player's defensive value, it really says more about his hitting.

In Rey's defense (no pun intended), his 1999 was as good a year with the glove as anybody I'm aware of has ever had. Yeah, it would have taken a full career of that to make his bat tolerable, but he does have that.

[metirish]

Did you really feel that way about Mora at the time?, my memories of him are him as a bit player.........nice career after leaving though, Daniel Murphy could end up the same way.

[G-Fafif]

One of the best conversations I was ever in, circa 1999:

OUR LANDLADY: John Olerud is my favorite Met.
ME: Mine is Fonzie.
OUR LANDLADY (to Mrs. FAFIF): What about you?
MRS. FAFIF: I like Ordonez.

I miss conversations like those.

[G-Fafif]

smg58 wrote: I learned at a young age that when a team's front office goes out of their way to draw attention to a player's defensive value, it really says more about his hitting.

I never really thought of it that way, but that would explain Doug Saunders and Pat Howell, too.

[G-Fafif]

metirish wrote: Did you really feel that way about Mora at the time?

Mora inspired much infatuation during a relatively brief sample size. He became one of my all-time favorites by dint of his 1999 and 2000 accomplishments yet I couldn't really argue that he didn't loom as a liability at short for a team not necessarily guaranteed a trip back to the playoffs in the summer of 2000.

Murphy's an interesting comparison, though Mora was a superb outfielder in glimpses there as a Met while Murphy's best position remains at bat.

[metirish]

One of the best conversations I was ever in, circa 1999: OUR LANDLADY: John Olerud is my favorite Met. ME: Mine is Fonzie. OUR LANDLADY (to Mrs. FAFIF): What about you? MRS. FAFIF: I like Ordonez. I miss conversations like those.

you really need that fourth person to say Ventura and that conversation would have been the greatest ever.

[batmagadanleadoff]

smg58 wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Doug Flynnigan, and I loved him for it. I'd be impressed with anyone under 35 who can remember seeing Doug Flynn hit. (I'm almost 50, and I can't remember Doug Flynn hitting) I have no memory of Doug Flynn hitting, either. Although thanks to Flynn, I learned at a young age that when a team's front office goes out of their way to draw attention to a player's defensive value, it really says more about his hitting. In Rey's defense (no pun intended), his 1999 was as good a year with the glove as anybody I'm aware of has ever had. Yeah, it would have taken a full career of that to make his bat tolerable, but he does have that.

I do remember Doug Flynn hitting. I just don't remember Doug Flynn hitting. I'd be surprised if Ozzie Smith didn't have half a dozen fielding seasons better than Rey's '99. Me, I remember Rey as a visually breathtaking fielder, exciting to watch. But the numbers never backed up the enormous hype about him, which suggested, no -- proclaimed -- that Rey's fielding was as valuable as Ruth's hitting. Or something close to that. From stitching Bobby V quotes, snippets and sound bites througout the Ordonez era, I'm absolutely convinced that Bobby V hated this guy, and the additional quote in the linked article at the top of this thread is one more data point of confirmation on that front. With respect to FAFIF's line about Rey's RBI total, I specifically recall Valentine shooting that down when members of the media were using that RBI total to suggest that Ordonez turned a corner for the better, bat-wise.

[G-Fafif]

One of the best conversations I was ever in, circa 1999: OUR LANDLADY: John Olerud is my favorite Met. ME: Mine is Fonzie. OUR LANDLADY (to Mrs. FAFIF): What about you? MRS. FAFIF: I like Ordonez. I miss conversations like those. you really need that fourth person to say Ventura and that conversation would have been the greatest ever.

Not only was I thinking the same thing now, I was thinking the same thing then.

Of course if I directed adult films, instead of a pizza delivery guy showing up at the door, I'd have Robin Ventura arrive in full uniform. And instead of adult film activities ensuing, everybody would gather 'round the TV to watch a tape of Game Five.

[G-Fafif]

Bobby V didn't much care for the way Rey O talked, either.

Bobby Valentine won't make Rey Ordonez take English lessons, but the manager made it clear Thursday that the club would encourage the shortstop from Cuba to trust himself more with his second language. ''I'm not sure that it's to say that you have to stand up for your own team, but it's to say that we want him to be an integral part of our team, we don't want him as an independent contractor who comes in, catches the ball and throws it across the diamond for a highlight film,'' said Valentine.

A more damning quote than I realized at the time, probably.

His rookie year, when Dallas Green was managing, Rafael Landestoy coached and served as Rey-Rey's interpreter. That ended after one season.

[metsmarathon]

remember how in june of 99 his batting average actually touched .300 for a few days, and it seemed like he had actually figured out how to be less than useless at the bat?

and then he hit .231 from july 1 onward...

[Vic Sage]

if Valentine hated him so much, he didn't have to play him.
If Davey Johnson is managing those teams, we'd have seen Fonzie at SS, Huskey at 3b and Everett and Ochoa platooning in RF.
heck, Davey might've even played Huskey at SS... just to mess with our heads. I bet we would've won more games.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Vic Sage wrote: if Valentine hated [Ordonez] him so much, he didn't have to play him.

Maybe Bobby V did have to play Rey, though I can't prove it. But Bobby V didn't always get his way in the way of personnel decisions (e.g., Bobby Bonilla, 1999). Few managers do. My theory is that someone very high up was very high up enamored of Rey, and so Rey had to play. Probably the small-ball loving Fred Wilpon. Whatever the case, Bobby V is too fucking smart to have given Ordonez 3000+ plate appearances.

[Edgy MD]

We did have Everett and Ochoa platooning in right for a bit. And Everett and Huskey. It's not like they all didn't get plenty of PT under both Valentine and Green.

The Johnson love distorts things a little. The Mets won the championship not with Mitchell at shortstop --- he appeared there for 24 games and a total of 151 innings. The starter (139 games and 1044 innings) was Rafael Santana, who didn't get his batting average over .200 until August 25, and who had an OPS+ of 52.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: The starter (139 games and 1044 innings) was Rafael Santana, who didn't get his batting average over .200 until August 25, and who had an OPS+ of 52.

Well hey, Tejada will beat that.


I was always amused when Ordonez was near the top of the leagues in IBB. I think it was around that time I started realizing managers aren't the 30 smartest baseball guys in the world. Far from it.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Among Mets, Ordonez has to win this one going away over contenders like Flynn, given the offensive context in which he was putting up these numbers, doesn't he? Plus, there's plenty like him-- the Belliards and Cedenos and Santanas and Folis and such.

Do we give guys like Alex Rios (.227/.265/.348 over 570 PA last year) or Vernon Wells (.218/.248/.412 over 529 PA) "extra credit" for being corner outfielders? It feels like we should.

[Edgy MD]

Among Mets, Ordonez has to win this one going away over contenders like Flynn, given the offensive context in which he was putting up these numbers, doesn't he? Plus, there's plenty like him-- the Belliards and Cedenos and Santanas and Folis and such.

But, of course, we can standardize for that.

Career OPS+
Flynn: 57
Ord��ez: 59

Do we give guys like Alex Rios (.227/.265/.348 over 570 PA last year) or Vernon Wells (.218/.248/.412 over 529 PA) "extra credit" for being corner outfielders? It feels like we should.

Sure, but they're not career-long strugglers.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Among Mets, Ordonez has to win this one going away over contenders like Flynn, given the offensive context in which he was putting up these numbers, doesn't he? Plus, there's plenty like him-- the Belliards and Cedenos and Santanas and Folis and such. But, of course, we can standardize for that. Career OPS+ Flynn: 57 Ord��ez: 59

Yes, but what was the average OPS+ for starting shortstops/middle-infielders during Flynn's time?

Do we give guys like Alex Rios (.227/.265/.348 over 570 PA last year) or Vernon Wells (.218/.248/.412 over 529 PA) "extra credit" for being corner outfielders? It feels like we should. Sure, but they're not career-long strugglers.

They're up and down. Wells has been close to this level for a seasonlong stretch a couple of times, and Rios has been close twice himself.

[Theoldmole]

Why are RBIs not a meaningful metric? Each one represents a run scored as a result of something the guy did with his bat.

[Frayed Knot]

TheOldMole wrote: Why are RBIs not a meaningful metric? Each one represents a run scored as a result of something the guy did with his bat.

But they're very situational and line-up and team-dependent.
They measure what they measure but as a comparative tool it's very flawed.

[Ceetar]

TheOldMole wrote: Why are RBIs not a meaningful metric? Each one represents a run scored as a result of something the guy did with his bat.

No it doesn't. It represents how good the players in front of him are. When Castillo flicked a soft single in right center and Reyes scored from third after his triple, that doesn't actually represent great ability. A David Wright home run isn't twice as big a feat just because Daniel Murphy drew a walk in the previous AB.

The stat doesn't really represent offensive talent. A .200 hitter on a good team can get twice as many RBIs as a .300 hitter on a bad team. That doesn't make him a better hitter.

[batmagadanleadoff]

G-Fafif wrote: Bobby V didn't much care for the way Rey O talked, either. Bobby Valentine won't make Rey Ordonez take English lessons, but the manager made it clear Thursday that the club would encourage the shortstop from Cuba to trust himself more with his second language. ''I'm not sure that it's to say that you have to stand up for your own team, but it's to say that we want him to be an integral part of our team, we don't want him as an independent contractor who comes in, catches the ball and throws it across the diamond for a highlight film,'' said Valentine. A more damning quote than I realized at the time, probably.

That was definitely a shot, there.

[metsmarathon]

Among Mets, Ordonez has to win this one going away over contenders like Flynn, given the offensive context in which he was putting up these numbers, doesn't he? Plus, there's plenty like him-- the Belliards and Cedenos and Santanas and Folis and such. But, of course, we can standardize for that. Career OPS+ Flynn: 57 Ord��ez: 59 Do we give guys like Alex Rios (.227/.265/.348 over 570 PA last year) or Vernon Wells (.218/.248/.412 over 529 PA) "extra credit" for being corner outfielders? It feels like we should. Sure, but they're not career-long strugglers.

doug flynn, with a career 4085 plate appearances, rates at -75 offensive runs above replacement, or 7.9 offensive wins above replacement. normalized to 600 pa, that comes out to -11oRAR and -1.16 oWAR per 600 pa season. with teh mets he was -10 oRAR/600pa and -1.08 oWAR/600pa

rey ordonez, with a career 3407 pa rates at -50 oRAR or -5.0 oWAR. normalized per 600pa, he's at -8.8 oRAR/600pa and 0.88 oWAR/600pa. however, his one good year with tampa masks his awfulness with the mets. in his 3216 metly pa, he was -58 oRAR. normalized, he's down at -10.8 oRAR/600 and -1.08 oWAR/600

so for his career, rey was a little better. as a met, they were equally horrid, with a slim edge going to rey0

rios was -10 oRAR last year. wells was +2. in 1996, reyes put up a -16 oRAR. in a scant 391 plate appearances. not to be outdone, in '77, flynn logged a -16 oRAR in a meager 333 plate appearances. suck it alex rios!

for his career, and using bbref's numbers, rey's glove was worth 0.6 wins more than what his bat cost, leaving him with a career 0.6 WAR..

[MFS62]

Actually, while the body of work is small, Mike Nickeas (OPS+ 37) doesn't exactly remind me of Johnny Bench.

Later