The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculation)

[bmfc1]

Murray Chass does not recommend that the Red Sox hire Bobby V.:
http://www.murraychass.com/?p=4056

[A Boy Named Seo]

bmfc1 wrote: Murray Chass does not recommend that the Red Sox hire Bobby V.: http://www.murraychass.com/?p=4056

'Cuz he doesn't like him, pretty much. OK.

I'd love if BV got the Sox job. I could like them again.

[Gwreck]

I dislike giving credit to Murray Chass, but Marty Noble had many similar complaints about Valentine when discussing him at the Faith and Fear Tuesday event a year or two ago.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Chass seems pretty bitter.

After the second loss, which dropped the Mets into a wild-card tie and sent them on to a season-ending five-game losing streak, McRae told reporters, �They don�t like us. Their coaches don�t like Bobby. Not only don�t they like us, they don�t like our manager and it gives them extra incentive. They want to kick our butts. Everybody has added incentive to beat us, and we�re still in the position we�re in.� Earlier in the season, McRae said, �He�s not a typical manager. He does weird and goofy things. . . . I�m not saying he�s right or wrong. He�s a different type manager and it�s our job to adjust to what he�s doing.�

This is not damning to me. I didn't think managing was a popularity contest with the rest of the league.

Valentine kept his job and was at it later that season when he targeted Todd Hundley, the Mets� catcher, for his sarcastic criticism, singling him out to reporters as someone who needed to get more sleep, meaning he was out running around and drinking.

Todd had problems, If I recall.

"His reputation also includes the way he deals with reporters. A reporter who covered him in Texas told me a long time ago that Valentine has a divide-and-conquer strategy by which he pits the writers against each other and divides them into two groups: those who will do his bidding and those who won�t. Guess which group gets Bobby�s leaks?"

This is the way many sources work. Welcome to reporting, Murray.

They are Bobby�s Boys, and they will write anything to make Valentine happy because he makes them happy by leaking stories to them. Valentine�s interview with the Red Sox provided Bobby�s Boys with their latest opportunity to extol his virtues.

Translation: It's not my fault that my competition repeatedly scooped me.

While it�s a fact that Valentine managed the Mets to two consecutive wild-card berths in 1999 and 2000 and the World Series in 2000, it�s also a fact that in 14 years with the Rangers and the Mets he never managed a team that finished in first place.

You kind of don't need to manage a team into first place with the wild card, which Valentine did twice. I think more people were impressed that he got that particular Mets team into the World Series.

[Edgy MD]

That's a complete hatchet job --- right down to the pointless parenthetical swipe at Bill James --- from a guy with a strange propensity for holding grudges.

[ashie62]

Edgy DC wrote: Although we've never seen his ballroom moves.

Or Rose Bowl Parade cheerleading..

[Frayed Knot]

From Chass's piece

* [veteran manager]: �I�d burn out my bullpen in a minute to kick his ass.� -- and if Bobby's team is my team I'd invite the opposing skipper to do so every time cuz we'll come out better in the long run


* In the same conversation, one of the managers remarked, �Valentine�s team has to be 10 games better than anyone else because everyone hates him and plays harder to beat him.� -- Does anyone really actually believe this crap? ... not that sentences like this aren't said but that (by implication) teams/managers actually give up winnable games by not always trying all that hard against managers they do like and only try really hard when there's something personal on the line (and to the tune of 10 games no less)?

[Ceetar]

From Chass's piece * [veteran manager]: �I�d burn out my bullpen in a minute to kick his ass.� -- and if Bobby's team is my team I'd invite the opposing skipper to do so every time cuz we'll come out better in the long run * In the same conversation, one of the managers remarked, �Valentine�s team has to be 10 games better than anyone else because everyone hates him and plays harder to beat him.� -- Does anyone really actually believe this crap? ... not that sentences like this aren't said but that (by implication) teams/managers actually give up winnable games by not always trying all that hard against managers they do like and only try really hard when there's something personal on the line (and to the tune of 10 games no less)?

sure..I mean, Tony LaRussa's teams in '06 and '11 had to be so much better than everyone else right?

[metirish]

Then Lucchino asked me a question. �What do you think of him?� he asked.

Ha! and we all know what Chass thinks of Valentine, it is well documented.

[metirish]

Why is Chass highlighted on here?

[Frayed Knot]

From Ian Browne at MLB.com -- Barring a major surprise, either Bobby Valentine or Gene Lamont will be named Terry Francona's successor at a press conference sometime within the next few days.
Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington plans on having his first manager in place before baseball's Winter Meetings, which start on Dec. 5 in Dallas.

[G-Fafif]

Coincidence that Chass is linked here in that I was discussing him yesterday with someone who used to work with him, who said, in so many words, that he was...well, me using that unattributed conversation to take a shot at Chass would be akin to Chass cherrypicking stray recollections, many of them unattributed, to take shots at Valentine.

Chass regularly obsesses on Valentine's not finishing first, ignores that his teams always improve when he arrives and did make the playoffs in consecutive years (never mind the championship in Japan). With five teams in each league's playoffs now, I like how he says there's a "greater emphasis on finishing first." The greater emphasis is going to be on getting one of those playoff spots, I would think, and if you can finish first, all the better. But either way, the Braves passing the Mets in 1999 and 2000 is not the sole predictor of success for the Red Sox not having to face a one-game elimination round in 2012.

As Gwreck noted, Noble, who spent a lot more time around the manager than Chass did, was not a fan of Valentine's, though when he explained it to our little group in 2010, he was specific in his criticisms and sounded eminently reasonable about it. But at no point did Noble question Valentine's baseball acumen. "Bobby's boys" might carry water for Valentine. His detractors might shoot down his candidacy. But Chass seems in this for the grudge and the slights, perceived, imagined or genuine.

And since when is it a manager's job to make sure other teams like him?

This may or may not have anything to do with anything, but the Terry Collins we got in 2011 seemed worlds removed from the Terry Collins we heard about from Anaheim circa 1999. Some people (particularly those looking to get back to the top of their profession) take stock and evolve as necessary. I get the impression that's what Collins did. I have no idea if that applies to Valentine, but for someone who transformed three different franchises on two different continents, I wouldn't put any learning past him.

[Guest themetfairy]

IIRC, Noble went as far to say that Bobby could get 3-5 extra wins out of a group of players than other managers could, which could be the difference between making and not making the playoffs.

As Greg said, Noble didn't let his personal dislike of the man cloud his judgment of Bobby's abilities as a manager.

[metirish]

Dan Shaughnessy in the Globe says it's got to be V, which will further rile the faithful.


Valentine is the right Sox fit

By Dan Shaughnessy Globe Columnist / November 22, 2011 E-mail|Print|Reprints|Comments (153) Text size � + He is married to the daughter of Ralph Branca, who threw the gopher ball to Bobby Thomson at the Polo Grounds in 1951. His first roommate in professional baseball was Bill Buckner, when the two were drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1968. He managed the Texas Rangers, who were once managed by Ted Williams. He also managed the New York Mets, who inflicted immeasurable pain to our region in 1986. Is there any doubt that Bobby Valentine is destined to be the next manager of the Boston Red Sox? No. There can be no doubt. This is a man directly connected to the two most infamous moments in baseball�s 20th century. And that is only one of the reasons that he is the perfect fit to be the 45th manager in the storied history of the Boston Red Sox. The Sox trotted out Bobby V at 5:30 yesterday afternoon for one of those goofy media auditions (be mindful that it infuriates the Patriots when the Sox grab attention on any NFL game day). Following in the footsteps of the immortal Pete Mackanin, Dale Sveum, Sandy Alomar Jr., Torey Lovullo, and Gene Lamont, Valentine met with the once-carnivorous Boston press corps after spending the day answering questions for the deep thinkers in the Sox baseball operations department. It appears that Bobby V passed the audition with baseball ops. He certainly pleased the media. The only question that remains is . . . How did Valentine do with the soccer-lovin�, NASCAR-obsessed, sports-radio-listenin�, low-talkin�, absentee owner of the Red Sox? Hope Bobby V didn�t go all Sveum and spit tobacco juice into a Styrofoam cup during lunch. Valentine has to get the job. There�s still a possibility the Sox could trade for John Farrell. Lamont is coming to town today for a second interview, and Lovullo is technically still in the mix. Sox general manager Ben Cherington has backed off his Thanksgiving deadline and it�s likely the Sox will name their new manager early next week, comfortably in advance of the annual baseball meetings. But it�s got to be Valentine. Like Larry Lucchino, Bobby V knows he is the smartest guy in the room. He has managed more than 2,000 big league games, taken a team to the World Series, and been named manager of the year. He was an absolute god when he managed in Japan (think of Jerry Lewis in France), but he opted to leave the perfect, safe gig overseas so that he would have one more chance at the big leagues. This is that chance. Valentine desperately wants this job. If we can quote Don Henley we can say that Bobby V would walk on his lips through busted glass to get to the corner office at Fenway Park.Continued... Here�s Valentine�s answer when he was asked why he would want to manage the Red Sox: �Well other than they have one of the best teams in baseball, one of the best organizations in baseball, one of the greatest venues in baseball, with a great winning tradition over the last 10 years, there�s really no reason that I want to be here.�� He will be 62 next season. He was raised and still lives in Stamford, Conn., where he was an athletic legend, great at baseball and football. He was supposed to replace O.J. Simpson in the backfield at Southern Cal, but he opted for baseball. Valentine�s fast track to major league stardom was derailed when his leg exploded while playing for the Angels in 1973. He sees everything that happens on a baseball field. He did a spectacular job turning the Rangers around in 1985 and took an underwhelming Mets team to the World Series in 2000. He believes in the Warren Zevon theme of �I�ll Sleep When I�m Dead.�� New York City folks who endured the tragedy of the fallen towers in 2001 will tell you that Bobby Valentine was the real deal when it came to caring for victims after the attacks. For once in his life, he was all action, little talk. Not bad for a guy who�s often been portrayed as a fraud and a poser. Bobby V got off a couple of whoppers yesterday. He claimed not to remember much about his experience managing the �02 Mets. This would be like Terry Francona, circa 2020, saying he can�t quite remember his last year managing the Red Sox. The �02 Mets made the 2011 Red Sox look like the noble gang from �Remember the Titans.�� Stop the search. Bobby Valentine is the guy. Enough with the charade. Enough with the soft parade of Mackanins, Sveums, and Alomars. Cherington needs to pass Go, collect $200, and name Bobby Valentine manager of the 2012 Red Sox. He�s smart and qualified. He is destiny�s child in Boston baseball�s nuclear winter of 2011-12. Dan Shaughnessy can be reached at dshaughnessy@globe.com. � Copyright 2011 Globe Newspaper Company.

[G-Fafif]

He is married to the daughter of Ralph Branca, who threw the gopher ball to Bobby Thomson at the Polo Grounds in 1951. His first roommate in professional baseball was Bill Buckner, when the two were drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1968. He managed the Texas Rangers, who were once managed by Ted Williams. He also managed the New York Mets, who inflicted immeasurable pain to our region in 1986.

Impressive how he got there.

"Think Shaughnessy, think...the Branca thing kinda works if you don't stare too hard at it, the Buckner thing definitely works, the Mets thing goes with the Buckner thing...how can I fit the Rangers in with this? Hmmm...TED WILLIAMS! OMG, Danny boy, you did it again!"

[Fman99]

G-Fafif wrote: Coincidence that Chass is linked here in that I was discussing him yesterday with someone who used to work with him, who said, in so many words, that he was...well, me using that unattributed conversation to take a shot at Chass would be akin to Chass cherrypicking stray recollections, many of them unattributed, to take shots at Valentine. Chass regularly obsesses on Valentine's not finishing first, ignores that his teams always improve when he arrives and did make the playoffs in consecutive years (never mind the championship in Japan). With five teams in each league's playoffs now, I like how he says there's a "greater emphasis on finishing first." The greater emphasis is going to be on getting one of those playoff spots, I would think, and if you can finish first, all the better. But either way, the Braves passing the Mets in 1999 and 2000 is not the sole predictor of success for the Red Sox not having to face a one-game elimination round in 2012. As Gwreck noted, Noble, who spent a lot more time around the manager than Chass did, was not a fan of Valentine's, though when he explained it to our little group in 2010, he was specific in his criticisms and sounded eminently reasonable about it. But at no point did Noble question Valentine's baseball acumen. "Bobby's boys" might carry water for Valentine. His detractors might shoot down his candidacy. But Chass seems in this for the grudge and the slights, perceived, imagined or genuine. And since when is it a manager's job to make sure other teams like him? This may or may not have anything to do with anything, but the Terry Collins we got in 2011 seemed worlds removed from the Terry Collins we heard about from Anaheim circa 1999. Some people (particularly those looking to get back to the top of their profession) take stock and evolve as necessary. I get the impression that's what Collins did. I have no idea if that applies to Valentine, but for someone who transformed three different franchises on two different continents, I wouldn't put any learning past him.

So what you're saying is, Chass is a wanker, right? It's OK, you can say it.

[Edgy MD]

G-Fafif wrote: He is married to the daughter of Ralph Branca, who threw the gopher ball to Bobby Thomson at the Polo Grounds in 1951. His first roommate in professional baseball was Bill Buckner, when the two were drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1968. He managed the Texas Rangers, who were once managed by Ted Williams. He also managed the New York Mets, who inflicted immeasurable pain to our region in 1986. Impressive how he got there. "Think Shaughnessy, think...the Branca thing kinda works if you don't stare too hard at it, the Buckner thing definitely works, the Mets thing goes with the Buckner thing...how can I fit the Rangers in with this? Hmmm...TED WILLIAMS! OMG, Danny boy, you did it again!"

This is the post that I was thinking of writing, but was late to the party.

The Yankees should hire Art Howe, because he managed the Mets who were once managed by Casey Stengel and another time managed by Joe Torre. It's FATE!

[G-Fafif]

Bobby Valentine, who was traded to the Mets three days after Tom Seaver retired Art Howe in his final game as a Met for six more years...and Howe managed the Mets the year the A's played the Red Sox in the playoffs...and Seaver was on the Red Sox the year they lost to the Mets in the World Series...and Ted Williams once managed the Rangers...anyway, he's going to be the Red Sox' next manager, sources indicate.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Sweet Valentine, bah, bah, bah!

[Valadius]

I still can't understand why it took so long for him to land another managerial gig.

[Edgy MD]

Well, the Japan job was nothing to sneeze at.

I hope he knows who Scutaro is this time.

[bmfc1]

The last two managers who lead the Mets to the World Series are employed by other teams while the Mets are managed by Terry "Bunty" Collins. I have manager-envy.

[ashie62]

Heres to hoping Bobby V can make things miserable for the MFY's.

[Ceetar]

bmfc1 wrote: The last two managers who lead the Mets to the World Series are employed by other teams while the Mets are managed by Terry "Bunty" Collins. I have manager-envy.

yes, but the next one's still employed by the Mets.

[metirish]

WOW, the comments coming form the fans up there is mind boggling, a lot are fixated on the Chass column and the stupid "how many days in first place", others are convinced that Valentine is nothing more than a bridge to Madden or Farrell. It would seem that the trend is negative on V.

[Ceetar]

metirish wrote: WOW, the comments coming form the fans up there is mind boggling, a lot are fixated on the Chass column and the stupid "how many days in first place", others are convinced that Valentine is nothing more than a bridge to Madden or Farrell. It would seem that the trend is negative on V.

I believe through 2007-2008 the Mets spent the most time in first place. I think the 2011 Red Sox as well.

[Edgy MD]

How could Chass have so much juice? He's writing a blog on a personal website, for cripe's sake.

[metirish]

Edgy DC wrote: How could Chass have so much juice? He's writing a blog on a personal website, for cripe's sake.

I bet his blog got a big jump in hits the last week though.

[metirish]

Finn not a fan , geez



http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2011/11/five_thoughts_on_bobby_valenti.html

[G-Fafif]

How could Chass have so much juice? He's writing a blog on a personal website, for cripe's sake.

Heavens to Betsy, Murray Chass does not write a blog. He says so like a lunatic right here:

This is a site for baseball columns, not for baseball blogs. The proprietor of the site is not a fan of blogs. He made that abundantly clear on a radio show with Charley Steiner when Steiner asked him what he thought of blogs and he replied, �I hate blogs.�

And when you've said it to Charley Steiner, you've said it all.