Sherman lays it on a little thick

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Through undaunted determination, Posada became a switch-hitter and switched to catcher; a combination that forged a borderline Hall-of-Fame career and also provided the backdrop to his 2011 campaign. After the 2010 season, the Yankees informed Posada -- against his wishes -- that he was no longer a catcher; so tired had the organization grown in his fading receiving talents. The same fierce pride that enabled Posada to adapt to being a catcher made him resolute that his defensive abilities remained intact.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/playin_it_by_ear_nabI3Fpm52NVWhCzCQNoQK#ixzz1aOHnXzIv

Yuck. He's using Jeter-praise for Posada!

[Guest 86-Dreamer]

I couldn't make it through the whole article, but I think it is fair to describe his career as "borderline" Hall of Fame. He was a very good hitting catcher for a long time. But lets make sure writers don't try to sneak him across the border...

[Fman99]

Sherman is a borderline writer. Laying it on that thick, you'd think at least I'd get some fucking pancakes with all that syrupy goo.

[metirish]

Fuck Posada, although I am sure the writers will get him to the HOF, he always struck me as a chronic complainer type, that fucking look on his face I can still see it as he walks away from the batters box.

[Frayed Knot]

Lays it on a bit thick perhaps but I think the gist of the article is on: a later-round pick who also got a late start at his position yet built a very nice and lengthy career out of it. I think he'll fall short of HoF but he'll get some support.
It was also Posada, according to many views, whose more in-your-face personality kept that clubhouse in line many of those years even as his BFF Derek and his non-confrontational style got much of the credit for it.

[Edgy MD]

He also caught a perfect game before anybody (including many Yankee fans) even knew his name.

[dgwphotography]

Frayed Knot wrote: Lays it on a bit thick perhaps but I think the gist of the article is on: a later-round pick who also got a late start at his position yet built a very nice and lengthy career out of it. I think he'll fall short of HoF but he'll get some support. It was also Posada, according to many views, whose more in-your-face personality kept that clubhouse in line many of those years even as his BFF Derek and his non-confrontational style got much of the credit for it.

I do have to say that I have much more grudging respect for Posada than I ever did Mr. Intangibles...

[Guest themetfairy]

That's Captain Intangibles to you.

You know, like Captain Underpants....

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Frayed Knot wrote: Lays it on a bit thick perhaps but I think the gist of the article is on: a later-round pick who also got a late start at his position yet built a very nice and lengthy career out of it. I think he'll fall short of HoF but he'll get some support. It was also Posada, according to many views, whose more in-your-face personality kept that clubhouse in line many of those years even as his BFF Derek and his non-confrontational style got much of the credit for it.

If he hadn't retained his offensive production past the PDA "testing" line-o'-demarcation, I'd agree a hundred percent with your assessment.

He's put up Steve Garvey numbers wearing the tools of ignorance (mind you, wearing them about as awkwardly as Piazza, only with a slightly-less-embarrassing arm). He kindasorta HAS to be in.

[MFS62]

metirish wrote: Fuck Posada, although I am sure the writers will get him to the HOF, he always struck me as a chronic complainer type, that fucking look on his face I can still see it as he walks away from the batters box.

That face is probably the biggest reason why I dislike him.
He looks just like my cousin.
My cousin is not only an arsehole, but a YLDB as well.
I try to ignore him at family gatherings. (actually, I try not to invite him, but somehow he finds out about them)
Speaking of ignore, Jorgie has some pretty good numbers for a catcher that will be hard for HOV voters to totally ignore.

Later.

[Ceetar]

MFS62 wrote: Speaking of ignore, Jorgie has some pretty good numbers for a catcher that will be hard for HOV voters to totally ignore. Later.

So what you're saying is... Hope someone leaks something about him before he's eligible.

[MFS62]

Ceetar wrote: MFS62 wrote: Speaking of ignore, Jorgie has some pretty good numbers for a catcher that will be hard for HOV voters to totally ignore. Later. So what you're saying is... Hope someone leaks something about him before he's eligible.

Videos of Jorge, Jeter and Chipper betting on baseball games would suffice.
LOL!

Later

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Lays it on a bit thick perhaps but I think the gist of the article is on: a later-round pick who also got a late start at his position yet built a very nice and lengthy career out of it. I think he'll fall short of HoF but he'll get some support. It was also Posada, according to many views, whose more in-your-face personality kept that clubhouse in line many of those years even as his BFF Derek and his non-confrontational style got much of the credit for it. If he hadn't retained his offensive production past the PDA "testing" line-o'-demarcation, I'd agree a hundred percent with your assessment. He's put up Steve Garvey numbers wearing the tools of ignorance (mind you, wearing them about as well as Piazza, only with a slightly-less-embarrassing arm). He kindasorta HAS to be in.

Hmmm...



Of his contemporaries, his career looks a lot more like Jason Kendall's than Piazza's or Rodriguez's. I think you can find enough support to justify keeping him out, if you want to (and I want to).

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I meant defensively (hence, "wear the tools"). And as poorly as Fangraphs WAR does defense for most positions... it does so trebly for catchers. IIRC, it doesn't even include a real defensive measure because of the noise around defensive chances for backstops.

Trust me when I say that this is a case I prefer not to make, but he's more likely in than not. A career wOBA of .366 at catcher, over 17 seasons, may not equal Rodriguez or Piazza for value, but keeping him out is like keeping out Jim Palmer because he wasn't Seaver or Carlton*.

*Although Posada's a little more like "just north of Sutton Place or Newhouser Blvd."

[ashie62]

I take "Posada's fierce pride" to mean simply an unwillingness to give up a paycheck, like everyone else.

[metsmarathon]

if you use fangraphs' WAR, posada comes in at 11th best catcher of all time. ahead of him are the names you would expect - bench, fisk, pudge, carter, berra, piazza, bill dickey, mickey cochrance, ted simmons, and gabby hatnett. of those names, neither pudge nor piazza are yet eligible, but are expected, whispers and suspicions aside, to sail into the hall of fame. only ted simmons is unenshrined.

of all the catchers behind him in WAR, only roy campanella was elected to the hall through the popular vote. there are a bunch of really weak hall of famers who came in through either the veterans committee or the old timers committee.

ted simmons, with 50.4 WAR got only 3.7% of the vote in 1994, and dropped fmor the ballot.
posada sits at 44.9 WAR.
just behind him are wally schang at 43.8 WAR, who got a meager 4.1% of the vote in 1960 and dropped, thurman munson, whose 43.4 WAR and untimely death netter him a peak of 15.5% of the vote in 1981, his first year on the ballot, and bill freehan, whose 43.4 WAR was good enough for only 0.5% of the 1982 vote.

and it's not like all of posada's postseason experience should boost him much - his postseason OPS is some 100 points lower than his regular season OPS.

i think the hall of fame has a really weak batch of catchers in there. posada would be the worst catcher admitted by the writers who did not die young. not by much, but by enough.

bbref, btw, is less kind to posada. in addition to the afore mentioned ten catchers who are ahead of him in their WAR metric, bbref also has bill freehan and lance parrish.

[Edgy MD]

Before Bench, the Hall of Fame had a very different standard for catchers. They were expected to bat eighth, earn their paycheck on defense, and any offense was a bonus. And a rare one at that.

After Bench, the Hall of Fame had a new standard, and pretty much shut down the shop, not admitting a catcher for a long time, and when they did, Carlton Fisk had to wait a few years and Gary Carter had to wait a few years more than a few years.

I wouldn't dismiss the old-time entries so lightly. It's still the most defensive of positions after pitcher, but we're a long way from quantifying what Gabby Hartnett was worth defensively.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Ted Simmons should be in there. But then, this is an imperfect world.

[Frayed Knot]

Without looking into too deeply, I'd say that Simmons is a pretty good comp for Posada: a switch-hitting, offense-over-defense catcher who played second (or third) fiddle to some true HoF guys in his time.
Simmons started younger and was a full-timer earlier. Posada got a later start and a longer apprentice period (didn't get 500 ABs until age 28) but then played longer. Both used the DH in their later years.
Raw numbers alone wouldn't be a good comparison because Posada played in a much more offensive-friendly era.

Both were kind of funny looking too.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Frayed Knot wrote: Both were kind of funny looking too.

This gets them a bump on my ballot (Simmons more than Posada, who's just kind of unsettling, like a fun-house mirror). I like funny pictures in my imaginary hall, and I imagine the imaginary children visiting it will like 'em even more.

[Edgy MD]

Ted Simmons, photographed in more or less the same spot at Shea as everybody else in 1976.

Appears to have given blood that day, too.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Still, he looks princely. Valiant, almost.

[ashie62]

Does Posada get extra credit for WS rings?

Ted Simmons? Close..

[Edgy MD]

You say "Ted Simmons," and my almost immediate response is "Darrell Porter!"