BOOOOO WHITE JERRY

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

BoOOOOOooooOOOOOOoOOOooooOOOOOOooOOooOOOOoOOOoooo

[Frayed Knot]

Gary, Keith, Ron: 'Let him swing away'

Keith: 'Nope, he's going to bunt, he's going for the win'

FK: 'No, he's going for the loss'

[Guest Edgy DC]

BoOOOOOooooOOOOOOoOOOooooOOOOOOooOOooOOOOoOOOooooNTed right back to the pitcher.

The problem isn't the execution, [crossout:1etz469l]J[/crossout:1etz469l]Terry. It's the executions you're calling for.

Look in the mirror... long and hard.

[bmfc1]

Well said all. He's a dope and has helped the Mets earn their 4th place finish.

[Gwreck]

There were no outs. NONE!

[Frayed Knot]

The thing is, even if Evans does the worst and grounds into a DP, you've still got the tying run on 3rd and Turner coming up to take a crack at it.
I wouldn't have bunted there if a good bunter was up but what Terry did, especially given this team's track record on sac Bs, is inexcusable.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The thing is, the attitude toward the team is so demoralizing. "You guys suck, but given half a chance, I'm going to try to bail your sucky asses out and steal a win through extra heaping doses of strategery."

The amazing thing is that it hasn't fully demoralized the team. But Jerry's team didn't start consistently coming out flat until year two, so we'll see.

One out and nobody on for the Reds in the seventh? Overdoing it with bullpen matchups? Blows up in his face.

No out and two on for the Mets in the ninth? Bunts with his number-five hitter? Blows up in (what's left of) his face. But he gets to go to bed thinking the team failed him. But that's not how it went down, TC.

The mirror, Terry. Look long and hard. We need better from you next year.

Seriously, if I'm hiring a manager, his first order would be to begin all his post-game comments discussing what he did wrong. How he failed his team.

[Frayed Knot]

It's like the more the bunting fails the more determined he is to use it so as to prove it'll work.
At one point this season he was among MLB's lowest in having position players Sac Bunt but now that tactic has picked up speed like a runaway roller coaster.

[ashie62]

Terry was not hired for the long term..he had a lousy second half.

[Ceetar]

Collins raved about how he'd learned from his mistakes managing elsewhere. Let's hope he's learning something here for next year.

[ashie62]

Ceetar wrote: Collins raved about how he'd learned from his mistakes managing elsewhere. Let's hope he's learning something here for next year.

Do you feel like the team quit on him?

[Ceetar]

Ashie62 wrote: Ceetar wrote: Collins raved about how he'd learned from his mistakes managing elsewhere. Let's hope he's learning something here for next year. Do you feel like the team quit on him?

not quit. They're not playing to the same level or intensity they were in July. But I'm not sure that's reasonable to expect, all things considered.

[metirish]

I hope the Front Office feels the same way as this board, a lot of changes needed.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't want him fired. I want him evangelized.

[bmfc1]

He'll have next year and then after they finish 4th or last, Sandy will thank him, give him a title, and bring in a new guy that can "take the team to the next level."

[metsmarathon]

i think its a problem throughout baseball that when managers try harder to win, they try harder to lose the game.

sac bunting is one of those examples. that's a thing managers do when they think they're helping, but really all they it does is hurt. but it's what the book says to do...

the cards game last night, otoh, is how you use bunting to win. both strategically and tactically. shitty metly bunting loses that game.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Don't quit on next year. The Mets will destroy MLB next year, and then tour the pacific rim, vanquishing all comers.

[Frayed Knot]

metsmarathon wrote: i think its a problem throughout baseball that when managers try harder to win, they try harder to lose the game. sac bunting is one of those examples. that's a thing managers do when they think they're helping, but really all they it does is hurt. but it's what the book says to do... the cards game last night, otoh, is how you use bunting to win. both strategically and tactically. shitty metly bunting loses that game.

Yup! I've seen a lot of sac-bunting goin' on lately. Even from supposedly committed "Moneyball' teams like the BoSox. No one, I believe, wants to stand accused of doing nothing while their team goes down the drain.
Basketball coaches are like that too. I swear most hoops coaches would prefer losing a game 72-70 than win one 125-119 as the former gets them lauded for employing lots of strategy (lots of fouling and time outs called) while the latter marks them among media and colleagues as someone who just rolled the ball out on the court and let his athletes take over.



At least last night in Houston:
- the Astros have a pretty shitty, but speedy, offense
- the game was already in extra innings
- and ONE RUN WINS THE GAME ... the problem with [crossout]Jer[/crossout], i mean Terry last night is that he's doing this stuff in the 8th while down by two and extra-base power at the plate

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

bmfc1 wrote: He'll have next year and then after they finish 4th or last, Sandy will thank him, give him a title, and bring in a new guy that can "take the team to the next level."

I suspect this will be the case.

On the plus side, the bunting got me irrationally yelling at my radio last night. So... hey, emotional engagement! Thanks, Terry!

[Vic Sage]

I'll just reiterate what i said in June, in this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16309

...where 18 out of 21 of you "liked Terry" and i was the sole "dislike" vote

Terry the ****bunter is just another in the recent string of smallballers filling out our lineup card and i'm so sick of it, i can't even READ about a game (much less watch one) without getting pissed off at something he does or doesn't do. I'm not saying he's worse than Willie or Jerry in this regard, but the cumulative effect has worn me down to the nub.

[Lefty Specialist]

Bunting isn't THAT bad a play if you can get the bunt down reliably. If there's a trace of doubt, swing away.

I do think this team semi-quit about two weeks ago. Terry fired them up one last time and they took two out of three from the Braves. But then they lapsed back into the coma.

If Jerry Manuel were still here, he'd be laughing his way through press conferences with about 10 fewer wins (and 500 at bats for Lenny, I mean Willie Harris). Face it, this team was decimated; first through injuries, then through trades. I think on balance, Collins has gotten as much out of this team as anyone had a right to expect.

[metsmarathon]

the 9-11 first responder cap fiasco was a gut punch. at least, i thought at the time it would be.

[Frayed Knot]

Lefty Specialist wrote: Bunting isn't THAT bad a play if you can get the bunt down reliably.

Bunting can be a useful strategy in certain situations.
1) last night wasn't one of those
2) NYM players suck at it

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: Bunting isn't THAT bad a play if you can get the bunt down reliably. Bunting can be a useful strategy in certain situations. 1) last night wasn't one of those 2) NYM players suck at it

actually, bunting first and second no out is one of those situations where the numbers suggest it's good.

[Ceetar]

Collins gets his extension.

This is disappointing a little. I wish they'd retained some of that 'flexibility' Sandy used to talk about.

Post reports that Danny Boy is staying. Not that I trust random allusions made by the tabloids.

[bmfc1]

Two more years of bunting.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: Bunting isn't THAT bad a play if you can get the bunt down reliably. Bunting can be a useful strategy in certain situations. 1) last night wasn't one of those 2) NYM players suck at it actually, bunting first and second no out is one of those situations where the numbers suggest it's good.

Relative to other times, anyhow.

Staying out of the double-play is the minorest of considerations, because the on-deck hitter is going to be walked anywicks. So if the Mets give up Evans, the Reds walk Thole, the crowd grows from excited to bored, and up comes... the pitcher's spot, with the .182-batting Josh Satin having been switched out --- Terry overlooking that the deeper he goes into his depleted lineup, the further beyond the looking glass we get.

So, the best situation we could hope for would have been Turner, Paulino, or Nickeas pinch hitting with the tying run on third and the winning run on second and one out, rather than Evans up with the tying run on second and the winning run on first and no out.

Yeah, I guess that's possibly better. If the successful bunt was a sure thing. And too many managers treat it as such, when it's not.

One thing that jives me is Keith describing the strategy as "going for the win." I think it's certainly going for the tie. And Keith of all people should know how not-guaranteed the sacrifice bunt is.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: Bunting isn't THAT bad a play if you can get the bunt down reliably. Bunting can be a useful strategy in certain situations. 1) last night wasn't one of those 2) NYM players suck at it actually, bunting first and second no out is one of those situations where the numbers suggest it's good.

Not for getting two runs it isn't.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Terry confessing in interview with Kevin about how important player development was to him, and his game decisions occasionally reflected that over what was perhaps the move to make relative to the immediate need.

Trying to reconcile that with the buntalicious second half.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy DC wrote: Terry confessing in interview with Kevin about how important player development was to him, and his game decisions occasionally reflected that over what was perhaps the move to make relative to the immediate need. Trying to reconcile that with the buntalicious second half.

Maybe he thinks his guys REALLY need to learn how to bunt.