Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Castillo cut!

[Edgy MD]

Sholy Shit, Shatman!

[metirish]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Castillo cut!

Twitter is gone all atwitter with the news....

[Edgy MD]

The Second Spitter wrote: LS. you forgot injury prone. Anybody who asks "why all the hate" either: (1) Hasn't watched any baseball for the last year, possibly longer, or (2) Hasn't received much attention of late.

Darryl Strawberry wrote: Brokenness comes from lack of love or not being loved. LOVE conquers all! Your actions not doctrine! We show people the love of God by actually loving them through care, concern and kindness. People say "I Love You" all of the time but are you really loving that person through your actions, what you say to them, spending time with them, your attitude and tone toward them and how you treat them? That is loving.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

metirish wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Castillo cut! Twitter is gone all atwitter with the news....

And just when I was about to engage a dumbass who argued that fans booing Doug Sisk somehow proved they wouldn't also irrationally hate a black player. As if the charge wasn't racism but white supremacy.

[G-Fafif]

The Second Spitter wrote: I have no wish to politicize this thread, but these problems tend to arise when you start advertising a person's race at the point they are hired, as if it is a positive attribute to carry out their job, or is a positive reflection on the organization. Statements like "first Hispanic GM" really irk me. Or in Willie's case, "First African-American manager in New York". FFS.

To be fair, Fred Wilpon was very proud that in Art Howe he had hired New York's most Dismal-American manager.

[G-Fafif]

Oh...and wow.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

[Edgy MD]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Castillo cut! Twitter is gone all atwitter with the news.... And just when I was about to engage a dumbass who argued that fans booing Doug Sisk somehow proved they wouldn't also irrationally hate a black player. As if the charge wasn't racism but white supremacy.

Hilarious that he had to go back a quarter century to find a white guy treated shittily enough to make his point. Aaron Heilman wouldn't serve?

[Guest The Second Spitter]

G-Fafif wrote: The Second Spitter wrote: I have no wish to politicize this thread, but these problems tend to arise when you start advertising a person's race at the point they are hired, as if it is a positive attribute to carry out their job, or is a positive reflection on the organization. Statements like "first Hispanic GM" really irk me. Or in Willie's case, "First African-American manager in New York". FFS. To be fair, Fred Wilpon was very proud that in Art Howe he had hired New York's most Dismal-American manager.

He may have also been the first Norwood 7- American manager in New York, too.

[G-Fafif]

Martino Tweets:

In response to many: Obviously expected blowback re: Castillo column. If u disagree, entitled to your view, as I am 2 mine. Stand by it 100%

Just to confirm, he's sticking to whatever he decided other people were thinking without actually asking them what they were thinking.

What an exemplar of courage.

[Edgy MD]

That nips my "Andy Martino isn't entitled to an opinion" Facebook page in the bud.

Did he really write that? Is he Ms. Met?

[Edgy MD]

Facebook Guy wrote: Ok Mets. Castillo is gone, finally. Now how about Ollie? While you're at it, it's time to take Beltran behind the barn and put him out of his misery (and ours).

[metsmarathon]

i still hate beltran because a bunch of years ago he tried to take less money for a better chance of winning.

[bmfc1]

The problem for Tracksuit is that he's a dinosaur. He actually wrote the other day, in his blog, that he had quotes from Sandy on Beltran but we'd have to buy the newspaper to read them. By the time the newsboy was selling copies of the paper ("EXTRA! EXTRA!"), the quotes were readily available. Despite writing for a great sports paper, he has no relevance. Adam Rubin clean his clock every day. He tries to write about the minors but Ted Berg knows the system inside and out. He acts like he knows what we're thinking because he reads our Tweets but Mets Police and Amazin' Avenue truly know the voice of the fan. He tries to write columns but he's not even close to the quality of Faith & Fear in Flushing. We see that he has no place in the media so he's yelling "racism" to try and appear relevant. He should go back to Philadelphia.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, but the fans' response is still there years later, Whether it's us or not, it's still a story (which Tracksuit does a terrible job with, I think). Google "Mets sign Raul Chavez" and it's better than even money one of the first responses below the story will be something along the lines of "o great, another latino! I thou Omar was GONE!" It's just there and needs to be discussed. My experience suggests that nine times out of ten, if a player has labels of moral failure like "lazy," "jaking," "baby," "only cares about the money," "million-dollar arm/ten-cent head," we're talking about a non-white or foreign-born guy.

At the same time though Tom Glavine is not exactly held in any amount of regard by the majority of the fanbase.

And if you want to say "well, he was a member of the 1990s Braves dynasty" sure, but Steve Trachsel and Aaron Heilman are also lumped in as major sources of fan ire in recent years.

John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them.

Just as much as Martino is cherry picking the current whipping boy, you can easily cherry pick non-minority Mets that have been the scourges of the fanbase in recent years.

And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself.

The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer.

[Edgy MD]

SteveJRogers wrote: Yeah, but the fans' response is still there years later, Whether it's us or not, it's still a story (which Tracksuit does a terrible job with, I think). Google "Mets sign Raul Chavez" and it's better than even money one of the first responses below the story will be something along the lines of "o great, another latino! I thou Omar was GONE!" It's just there and needs to be discussed. My experience suggests that nine times out of ten, if a player has labels of moral failure like "lazy," "jaking," "baby," "only cares about the money," "million-dollar arm/ten-cent head," we're talking about a non-white or foreign-born guy. At the same time though Tom Glavine is not exactly held in any amount of regard by the majority of the fanbase.

None of those labels were applied to him and I certainly didn't say players of color were exclusively criticized. I'm talking about why some people get unfairly criticized. Sometimes hated.

SteveJRogers wrote: And if you want to say "well, he was a member of the 1990s Braves dynasty" sure, but Steve Trachsel and Aaron Heilman are also lumped in as major sources of fan ire in recent years.

Those lables weren't applied to them either. If I meant "ten times out of ten" I would have said it.

SteveJRogers wrote: John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them.

You don't believe that for a minute.

SteveJRogers wrote: Just as much as Martino is cherry picking the current whipping boy, you can easily cherry pick non-minority Mets that have been the scourges of the fanbase in recent years.

Actually, you're cherry-picking here, Steve.

SteveJRogers wrote: And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself.

What comment did I pull out? I didn't aver that anybody is explictly a racist. But there are issues with double standards all around this team and this fanbase and they need to be addressed.

SteveJRogers wrote: The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer.

What do you mean by "it isn't a stretch"? I don't think it's a stretch. I think it's tired, derogatory, hurtful, counterproductive, ignorant, petty, and embarassing. And those comments are all over the place.

The Mets aren't "guilty" of anything in building their roster, except perhaps for not building it as well as they might have.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them. You don't believe that for a minute.

Really now. I'll give you people were preconditioned to dislike Rodriguez and Benitez based on incidents and general behavior before becoming Mets (but then again I'm sure some of that caused people around here to be preconditioned to like them). But I'd wager that Franco is just as hated as Benitez was, but the fact that it has been so long since he was a regular closer, and the fact that the Mets brought him back to the fold has changed the narrative to him being a fan-favorite.

Edgy DC wrote: And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself. What comment did I pull out? I didn't aver that anybody is explictly a racist. But there are issues with double standards all around this team and this fanbase and they need to be addressed.

Fine, you created a comment that you'd be sure would be plenty available in Raul Chavez signs with the Mets articles. I can buy that there are issues of double standards when it comes to certain issues within the fanbase, but at the same time you are picking on blind attempts at being funny on comment sections of articles as opposed to debates in message forums.

Edgy DC wrote: The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer. What do you mean by "it isn't a stretch"? I don't think it's a stretch. I think it's tired, derogatory, hurtful, counterproductive, ignorant, petty, and embarassing. And those comments are all over the place. The Mets aren't "guilty" of anything in building their roster, except perhaps for not building it as well as they might have.

So, Omar wasn't a racist, but anyone who suggests that the way he built the roster over the years is? Where there is smoke, there tends to be fire. Someone isn't going to make a snarky blind comment unless there was something to the insinuation in the first place.

[Edgy MD]

SteveJRogers wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them. You don't believe that for a minute. Really now. I'll give you people were preconditioned to dislike Rodriguez and Benitez based on incidents and general behavior before becoming Mets (but then again I'm sure some of that caused people around here to be preconditioned to like them). But I'd wager that Franco is just as hated as Benitez was, but the fact that it has been so long since he was a regular closer, and the fact that the Mets brought him back to the fold has changed the narrative to him being a fan-favorite.

Steve, you're re-writing history here. If you really want to want to go find all the negative articles written about John Franco and Braden Looper, I'll find all the negative ones written about Armando Benitez. I think we can save that time though, can't we?

SteveJRogers wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself. What comment did I pull out? I didn't aver that anybody is explictly a racist. But there are issues with double standards all around this team and this fanbase and they need to be addressed. Fine, you created a comment that you'd be sure would be plenty available in Raul Chavez signs with the Mets articles. I can buy that there are issues of double standards when it comes to certain issues within the fanbase, but at the same time you are picking on blind attempts at being funny on comment sections of articles as opposed to debates in message forums.

I'm picking at hateful attempts at being hateful.

SteveJRogers wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer. What do you mean by "it isn't a stretch"? I don't think it's a stretch. I think it's tired, derogatory, hurtful, counterproductive, ignorant, petty, and embarassing. And those comments are all over the place. The Mets aren't "guilty" of anything in building their roster, except perhaps for not building it as well as they might have. So, Omar wasn't a racist, but anyone who suggests that the way he built the roster over the years is?

When I call somebody a racist, I'll let you know.

SteveJRogers wrote: Where there is smoke, there tends to be fire. Someone isn't going to make a snarky blind comment unless there was something to the insinuation in the first place.

Seriously? Steve, seriously?

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: Steve, you're re-writing history here. If you really want to want to go find all the negative articles written about John Franco and Braden Looper, I'll find all the negative ones written about Armando Benitez. I think we can save that time though, can't we?

Wait, are we talking articles or blather on the interwebs and call in radio shows? I thought we were more talking about that when it came to perceptions of team decision making and hatred on players.

Also I'll throw in a caveat for you when it comes to Benitez vs Franco & Looper. You can make a case that the Mets weren't all that relevant for negative articles and columns to be written during most of Franco's reign and the final months of Looper's.

But of course you can shoot holes in that logic by saying the Mets weren't relevant last year and there were negative Castillo articles all over the place.

Edgy DC wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: Where there is smoke, there tends to be fire. Someone isn't going to make a snarky blind comment unless there was something to the insinuation in the first place. Seriously? Steve, seriously?

Okay fine. That can probably be amended that if there are more than just a small handful of conspiracy theorists out there (9/11 "truthers", people wanting to know exactly where President Obama was born, JFK assassination buffs, etc) the comment shouldn't be dismissed as being hateful (be it towards Omar or the Mets organization as a whole) and racially motivated. Dismiss them for being silly and reactionary, but not because the author is a racist or is simply a Mets hater (this is a conversation that comes up with Yankee fans that I know, where Omar's actions have always been presented as racially motivated as opposed to simply bad baseball moves).

[Edgy MD]

Shorter sentences, please. I'm having trouble parsing.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

To be fair, Edge... isn't it fair to say that O brought quite a bit of the "Los Mets" stuff himself with the assertion, post-Pedro-signing, that he was AIMING to bring a larger Latin quotient to town for, like, vague recruitment reasons with IFAs?

(And Steve, are my eyes being wonky, or did you just defend Truthers and Birthers on the grounds that there are a lot of them?)

[Edgy MD]

I'm not sure what he said or what he brought on himself.

Look, if I'm the only one who is bothered by what I see as some of the uglier shit that has bubbled up in the culture surrounding this team, I'll happily drop it.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I didn't mean to convey that I'm not bothered by it.

I was just speculating that this particular depressing, energy-sucking strain of vocalized race-baiting ("Los Mets," circa 2006-2011) was invited in the door by Minaya's poor communication skills. (An early harbinger of the damage those would bumblingly wreak, as it turns out.)

Ultimately, whatever kicked it off... it's obviously taken on a life of its own. And, sadly, yelling at these idiots in the room has preempted any real, substantive talk about the issues that Tracksuit clumsily addressed.

[stevejrogers]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: To be fair, Edge... isn't it fair to say that O brought quite a bit of the "Los Mets" stuff himself with the assertion, post-Pedro-signing, that he was AIMING to bring a larger Latin quotient to town for, like, vague recruitment reasons with IFAs? (And Steve, are my eyes being wonky, or did you just defend Truthers and Birthers on the grounds that there are a lot of them?)

HA! No, I was making a correlation with people who see Omar making moves due to racial motivations as one key factor to making the moves due to smoke being there for the tin hat community to latch on to. There is enough shreds to pick on when it comes to Omar's motivations, as there is to 9/11 being an inside job or Obama being born in Keyna.

I think I'm trying to say I'd rather not think that any co-workers or RL friends who give me the business about Omar's moves are doing it based more out of getting a rise out of the Met fan in me.

As opposed to what they feel about Latin Americans in general.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I do see the ugliness, but I'm not convinced it's localized to the Mets community. I suspect that Mets fans are subject to the same forces that are increasing the ugliness in society at large. There's a lot of anti-Hispanic fervor out there these days. They're seen as illegals who come here just to steal low-paying jobs and to give birth to American citizens. And there's that whole "I refuse to have to press one for English" movement.

[Edgy MD]

If you read back, I hope I've made it clear that I don't assert that it's not localized to the Mets community. But it's my community. And I'm embarassed by it. As in all things, I prefer my community lead and not follow.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

Craig Calcaterra puts the issue to bed: Read in full

For Martino�s part, he never accuses anyone of racism, but notes that nonwhite players tend to be called lazy more often than white ones are, notes the divide between Hispanic and non-Hispanics in the Mets clubhouse in recent years and recalls how much criticism Omar Minaya took for seeming to favor Hispanic players when it came time to fill out the roster. And Martino isn�t wrong to make those observations. Quite right actually, at least in the abstract. But just as everyone will acknowledge that the concept of racism exists in general while never admitting to being a racist themselves, no one will ever acknowledge that Luis Castillo was hated because of race even if they admit that there are clear dynamics in sports that cause us to evaluate and talk about players of color in ways we never evaluate or talk about white players. Especially on recent editions of the New York Mets. In other words: this inquiry will probably get us nowhere. And Martino will probably find himself on the defensive before sundown, with everyone talking around this issue as opposed to about it.

So in fewer words, Martino just wanted attention?

[Edgy MD]

I don't think that's what Calterra is saying. Nor do I think it's in bed. At least, not for any quiet slumber.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Man, I just read through the comments over at the Daily News site. I feel awful inside now.

Why is it, in 2010 in America, no one can ever talk about race like an adult in a public forum? Martino's article is completely fair, calling Castillo's case a "complicated one" and accusing no one of anything. He only raises the possibility that, perhaps, just maybe, there is a racial component to the Mets' fans' virulent hatred of Luis Castillo, a player that's not all that terrible and, honestly, maybe not even all that overpaid (Check it out- since trading for him, the Mets have paid him about 21 million dollars. According to Fangraphs, he's been worth about 17 million. An overpay, natch, and he's not getting better, I don't think, but the contract is no where near as bad as, say, Oliver Perez's). Martino's article is a prompt. It's the beginning of a conversation about race and sports media and fandom, and most of the comments he gets in reply tell him to shut his mouth (or worse). Why? Why can't we talk about race? Ever?

"Racism" is an imprecise word loaded with so much ethical and political history and value it's hardly useful to use it. Its accepted definition in most media has been narrowed and narrowed to the point it can only be used to describe a specific type of bogeyman wearing Klan robes and holding a torch, but surely there are problematic racial attitudes that are, if not pervasive, much more widely spread than people let on.

I'll often read comments that minimize the extent of ugly racial attitudes. They'll say it's a small minority of people with opinions that aren't socially acceptable. Whenever I read this, I have to wonder whether I've just lived my entire life in the wrong social circles or if those commenters aren't being entirely truthful, either in their comments or with themselves. Cuz my experience has been that as soon you get someone in a situation where they feel they can let their guard down, let you in on the secret attitudes they have towards people, a ton of them will start spewing some repugnant shit. And these are otherwise decent people from all sorts of backgrounds and in all sorts of social situations. Again, this is just anecdotal and maybe my experience is completely different from other people's, but I couldn't tell you how many times people will drop an N bomb or blame the Jews or the immigrants or whoever the second they feel they won't be judged by the people they're talking to. And that's just the overt stuff, never mind more nuanced, less conspicuous concepts like hegemony.

I mean, there are reasons there's only one Hispanic guy (and no Black people) on this list. There are reasons why Jeff Francoeur is treated one way and Carlos Beltran is treated another. But how can we ever address these issues if no one's ever allowed to talk about them?