2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

[metirish]

I'm watching a round table on MLB Network featuring Heyman, Costas, Verducci and Gammons....Heyman drawing a line and separating Bonds and Clemens careers pre and post steroids....I mean really, WTF is that?, yes OK, their numbers could be HOF before they did steroids but when was that?

Verducci adamant that a line can't be drawn , Costas seemed to be leaning with Heyman.....

[Guest Edgy DC]

Kind of a weak digression to argue about two guys not on the ballot on the day two guys that were got elected.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Talk about Barry Larkin instead. If he went to Cardinal Hayes or Bronx Science instead of Moeller, and gave those 18 years to the Yankees instead of the Reds, folks would be going nuts tonight.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Alomar, by the way, is the first Diamondback in the Hall of Fame.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy DC wrote: Talk about Barry Larkin instead. If he went to Cardinal Hayes or Bronx Science instead of Moeller, and gave those 18 years to the Yankees instead of the Reds, folks would be going nuts tonight.

If Barry Larkin did all those things, he'da been in like Flynn already.

[G-Fafif]

Larkin had been on MLBN earlier in the day (he's a regular there) being congratulated on his relatively strong showing, which was framed as a step toward his inevitable election. They gave him plenty of love. The Bonds-Clemens discussion ensued in the context of the poor totals by Palmeiro, Gonzalez and McGwire after they had wrung all the talk they could out of Alomar's and Blyleven's election.

Costas's solution -- vote for Bonds and Clemens because their "authentic" pre-steroid performances were Hall of Fame worthy in their own right -- struck me as disingenuous. Be up in arms over PEDs or don't be up in arms over PEDs. I was with Verducci's disdain for "parsing" careers. Players are dismissed for careers that peter out from extraordinary to ordinary (like Dale Murphy's). Who's to say that Bonds or Clemens wouldn't have figuratively fallen off a cliff had they not (allegedly) used? How many players have had that "future Hall of Famer" tag wear off because they faded down the stretch and didn't seem all that impressive once the five-year waiting period was up? If you're looking at most players' full careers, I think you have to look at everybody's full careers.

[Guest Edgy DC]

If you go by the popular narrative of when they started using, Clemens' career was falling off a cliff (as he left Boston for Toronto) when he began juicing; Bonds was already on the back nine of his career, but was still as good a player as there was in baseball, but was jealous of the orgy of love that McGwire and Sosa were getting.

[G-Fafif]

While winding down a Shea ramp after one of those Big Mac lovefests in 1998, I asked a friend why people didn't flock like this to see the great Barry Bonds when the Giants came to town. Answer: "Because Barry Bonds is an asshole."

He never took injections of nice, but he sure knew how to draw a crowd eventually. Except to his name on the Hall of Fame ballot probably. Which, per the popular narrative, surely puts him in the same discussion as McGwire.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Pete Rose had a helluva career too, before he was caught gambling on baseball.

It's not just about the stats. I think that "shame" negates "fame". By all means, put Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens in the "Hall of Great Statistics", but keep them out of Cooperstown.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'll say this. If steroids keep Barry Bonds out of the Hall of Fame and (by extension) out of the good graces of baseball history, it'd be a better deterrent than any 50-day suspension.

[metirish]

G-Fafif wrote: Larkin had been on MLBN earlier in the day (he's a regular there) being congratulated on his relatively strong showing, which was framed as a step toward his inevitable election. They gave him plenty of love. The Bonds-Clemens discussion ensued in the context of the poor totals by Palmeiro, Gonzalez and McGwire after they had wrung all the talk they could out of Alomar's and Blyleven's election. Costas's solution -- vote for Bonds and Clemens because their "authentic" pre-steroid performances were Hall of Fame worthy in their own right -- struck me as disingenuous. Be up in arms over PEDs or don't be up in arms over PEDs. I was with Verducci's disdain for "parsing" careers. Players are dismissed for careers that peter out from extraordinary to ordinary (like Dale Murphy's). Who's to say that Bonds or Clemens wouldn't have figuratively fallen off a cliff had they not (allegedly) used? How many players have had that "future Hall of Famer" tag wear off because they faded down the stretch and didn't seem all that impressive once the five-year waiting period was up? If you're looking at most players' full careers, I think you have to look at everybody's full careers.

You of course explain it better than I . There is a part of me that feels bad for Gammons in such settings, time was when he would lead the chatter but with Costas, Heyman and Verducci he seemed lost at times, added nothing to the talk.

As an aside ,when did Harold Reynolds turn in to Tony Gwynn?

[seawolf17]

Edgy DC wrote: I'll say this. If steroids keep Barry Bonds out of the Hall of Fame and (by extension) out of the good graces of baseball history, it'd be a better deterrent than any 50-day suspension.

True. I don't usually get all Valadiusy with my definitive statements, but there is no way Bonds or Clemens gets in under the current system, because I'd bet that more than a quarter of the voting population either hates them as people or holds the steroids/lying thing against them.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I'll say this. If steroids keep Barry Bonds out of the Hall of Fame and (by extension) out of the good graces of baseball history, it'd be a better deterrent than any 50-day suspension.

Would it? It's not like the "Likely to die sooner and totally screw up your body" deters them. The money talks.

Especially for a lot of fringe guys that take/took when they were trying to stick in the big leagues. These guys are thinking about making it, about getting a big payday. Some of them would definitely rationalize that they're not getting into the Hall anyway, particularly if they don't take anything, so..


These guys are going to go to Cooperstown anyway. They'll be in all the other exhibits because they were top of the class when they played. They set records, had big moments, won championships. You take a kid to the Hall, have him see all those, and he'll turn to you when you get to the hall part and ask "Where's that Bonds guy that hit all those home runs? I want to see his plaque"

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think it means a lot.

Lenny Dykstra was a chronic gambler who came clean ten seconds after Pete Rose got banished. Living in good graces and being able to slap backs in peace the rest of their days means something to a lot of guys.

If Clemens is locked out and turned into an angry pariah, it'll have meaning. Dominican boys will come to manhood with the cautionary tale of Sosa. Angry Bonds defenders can spin it like he was jobbed by the white establishment, but with McGwire and Clemens joining him on the sidelines, hopefully that woulnd't fly too far.

I'm not saying it has to go down this way. I'm just saying the deterrent is a benefit if it does.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Save for maybe Bonds, the motivation for this generation of PED users-- if you believe the ones that have spoken out-- wasn't to put up HoF numbers. It was to BE great... or to keep a job.

I'd have to imagine that those who play/act with the Hall of Fame and other post-career concerns as their primary motivator don't get close enough to scoff at the "Elect Mattingly" t-shirts down the street.