Maine: Mad

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ledger_NYMets Maine furious with Manuel for pulling him, insists he's not hurt. "There's no reason I should be seeing a (expletive) doctor tomorrow."

Not knowing any of the facts and even having called for Jerry's furing today I'm still gonna side with the Gangsta on this one and wonder if he's not on some level forcing some drama to remind people who's boss again. It'd be a huge mark in his favor if he's as exasperated with Maine as I've been since last year.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ledger_NYMets Maine furious with Manuel for pulling him, insists he's not hurt. "There's no reason I should be seeing a (expletive) doctor tomorrow." Not knowing any of the facts and even having called for Jerry's furing today I'm still gonna side with the Gangsta on this one and wonder if he's not on some level forcing some drama to remind people who's boss again. It'd be a huge mark in his favor if he's as exasperated with Maine as I've been since last year.

I don't see how any of this chaos is going to look good for Manuel who can't control a clubhouse apparently. This is the second time (the possible decision to pull Maine from the rotation a couple of weeks ago) that Maine's gotten news from the media, this time about going to the doctor tomorrow. He says Manuel didn't talk to him once after the confrontation we saw in the dugout.

Warthen called Maine a habitual liar about his health.

Maine says he thinks Manuel has no confidence in him. (True or not, we all, including Manuel, want Maine to do well. What does letting him think this accomplish?)


Maine says he was never even asked if he was ok before being lifted and has no idea why he is going to the Dr. (I hope the doctors at least know what they're supposed to be looking at?)

Something's fishy here for sure. This reflects well on no one.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

"Habitual liar?"

Wow.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Warthen was not convinced. �When he is throwing that way, then there has got to be something incorrect in that arm. Something has got to be feeling bad. John is a habitual liar in a lot of ways, as far as his own health. He is a competitor and a warrior, and he wants to go out and pitch, but we have to be smart enough to see that he isn�t right, that the ball isn�t coming out of his hand correctly.�

It doesn't look so bad in context, but it's still an awful choice of words.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: I don't see how any of this chaos is going to look good for Manuel who can't control a clubhouse apparently.... Maine says he thinks Manuel has no confidence in him. (True or not, we all, including Manuel, want Maine to do well. What does letting him think this accomplish?).

I'd like to see Maine do well too. I'd also like to see Ollie Perez regain his form before the team dumps him. I rooted for Mark Bomback. And Juan Berenguer. And Eric Hillman and Gene Walter and Casey Fossum and every other tomato can that was a tomato can in a Met uniform. None of this entitles these pitchers to an indefinite number of starts.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

context:

�When he is throwing that way, then there has got to be something incorrect in that arm. Something has got to be feeling bad. John is a habitual liar in a lot of ways, as far as his own health. He is a competitor and a warrior, and he wants to go out and pitch, but we have to be smart enough to see that he isn�t right, that the ball isn�t coming out of his hand correctly.� So why let Maine pitch after the flawed bullpen session? �Talking to him several times in the bullpen, he convinced me that he could go out and compete. Watching his warmup pitches and watching the first hitter, it just wasn�t right�I gave him the benefit of the doubt.� Maine no longer believes that the team will do that. Asked if he thought Manuel had confidence in him, the pitcher said. �I�m sure he doesn�t have confidence in me. Whatever. My dealings are with Dan.� Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/#ixzz0oXFua3kC

[batmagadanleadoff]

So what has Maine done lately to deserve this unwavering confidence that he thinks he's entitled to? He's been ineffective for the most part.

It sounds like he painted Manuel and Warthen into a corner. If Maine was left in there to continue and pitched dismally, or worse, injured himself, who the hell knows if he'd then be claiming that he was mishandled because the team ignored his medical condition?

Jerry's damned either way, it seems.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Maybe.

It's just bad if they're talking through the media. Such battles get worse before they get better.

[Gwreck]

Jerry did a lot of things wrong here, including sending Maine out to pitch when he was clearly unsure about whether that was a good idea and then showing Maine up when taking him out of the game.

Those faults aside, I too have to side with Jerry here. The Mets need to win games and if Maine can't throw fastballs it's not as if he has great off-speed pitches to fall back on.

[Ceetar]

Gwreck wrote: Jerry did a lot of things wrong here, including sending Maine out to pitch when he was clearly unsure about whether that was a good idea and then showing Maine up when taking him out of the game. Those faults aside, I too have to side with Jerry here. The Mets need to win games and if Maine can't throw fastballs it's not as if he has great off-speed pitches to fall back on.

It's not so much the decision as how it was made, when it was made, and the lack of communication and the yelling at each other throw the media.

Why was his velocity suddenly 85? did he not warm up enough? Did he need to get looser? is his back hurting? blister? was it just first batter flukes? Inject water into the ball?

and what's the game plan from here? Maine thinks he can still pitch. was it a one day sorta 'my backs real tight today' that he needed longer to warm up and didn't do it? is it a skip a start type thing? I can't help but wonder if he wakes up fine today that they shouldn't send him out there. Even if Maine only goes 5.2, let Takahashi finish up..or are they planning to let Ollie finish the game? There is an off day next week, do you skip Maine? too many questions, no answers, and the situation is a mess from both sides.

[Frayed Knot]

I'm not sure that announcing five minutes before game time that Maine would not start and is going to get checked out the next day (whether he wants it or not) because they didn't like the looks of his warmup tosses would have made this whole tussle go down any better. Shirley someone would trot out the story about how Tom Seaver didn't feel so good during warmups for his imperfect game all those years back (there are others as well) and about how Jerry is so desperate to save his ass that he couldn't even wait until game time to start panicking.

[G-Fafif]

Warthen's "habitual liar" line, destined to go down as a pitching coach classic with "I can fix him in 10 minutes" and "Tuscany tile," brings to mind this little ditty from the 1884 presidential campaign:

Blaine! Blaine! James G. Blaine!
Continental liar from the state of Maine!

I've also seen it as "monumental liar". Either way, I read about it when I was a kid and it's rung through my brain at least a few Maine starts per year since 2007. I had no idea there was really something to it.

If John recovers and is still in the rotation when we face Cleveland, watch the sparks fly!

[metsmarathon]

contextually, the "habitual liar" thing sounds a lot less damning. its almost complimentary. i imagine maine is frustrated with his injury problems and feels like "if i can just work through it, i can figure out a way to make this work"

i guess i'd rather he want to go out there and try to get batters out even when he's not feeling good than to be looking for excuses not to be in the game.

i don't like playing the "let's read too much into things" game, but i can help but think that jerry has expressed so little confidence in his starters not named johan, and it may be affecting his relationship with those pitchers. at least with maine. who is probably smart enough to know that jerry's doghouse is an elusive threat. you may never know where it is, when it's coming, and how you got there, but once you're in, there's no escape until you make the transactions ledger.

maine seems to be a guy who gets into his own head too much, and having a manager constantly expressing doubt in your abilities is probably not the most helpful thing for a guy like that.

ultimately, its on john to be effective and figure things out, both how to stay healthy and how to pitch even if you're not. but i feel like jerry is not helping.

[batmagadanleadoff]

....yet all of it fails to measure up to the war of words touched off by the decision to remove John Maine after five pitches on Thursday night. Maine failed to reach 85 mph on any of his pitches, including the fastballs, and was quickly removed from the game by Jerry Manuel and pitching coach Dan Warthen. After the game, they cited the lack of velocity, a lackluster bullpen session before the game and an altered delivery, two things that made them think Maine was injured and trying to pitch through the pain. Catcher Rod Barajas also said Maine didn't look right, but Maine was less than thrilled with the team's decision-making.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/Even-When-the-Mets-Win-They-Lose-94569669.html

�If he�s throwing that way, then there�s got to be something incorrect in that arm,� Warthen said. �Something�s not feeling correct. John�s a habitual liar in a lot of ways as far as his own health. He�s a competitor and a warrior. He wants to go out there and pitch. But we have to be smart enough to realize this guy isn�t right, the ball�s not coming out of his hand correctly.� In the bullpen, Maine convinced Warthen that he could pitch, but he and Manuel were skeptical. So while Maine was warming up for the bottom of the first inning, they had Valdes preparing in the bullpen, which Maine noticed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/sports/baseball/21mets.html

Do you know what an 85 MPH fast ball is? It's a pitch that even Bud Harrelson could clout over the outfield wall. It sounds like Jerry didn't wanna wait until the Mets were down by three or four runs before pulling Maine.

[MFS62]

Its a matter of where the observation is coming from.
I remember a Mets pitcher (could have been Tommy Terrific), toward the end of his career, saying, "I'm throwing as hard as I ever did. But it takes the ball longer to get to the plate."

Maybe Maine does believe he is throwing as hard as ever.
But others are checking the time.


But, there must have been a different word to use than "liar", no matter what the context.
Later

[Guest Edgy DC]

I realize that there's an implied comment when that line is read with an appreciation for nuance, but "liar" is just one of those line-crossing words that makes people see red and ignore any context, particuarly when things are heated, particuarly competitive people.

Maybe I'm wrong, but trying to give it a reading that Maine can appreciate may be like trying to explain to your wife all the positive connotations that "bitch" and "phat" can have. Good luck with that.

[Ceetar]

metsmarathon wrote: i don't like playing the "let's read too much into things" game, but i can help but think that jerry has expressed so little confidence in his starters not named johan, and it may be affecting his relationship with those pitchers. at least with maine. who is probably smart enough to know that jerry's doghouse is an elusive threat. you may never know where it is, when it's coming, and how you got there, but once you're in, there's no escape until you make the transactions ledger. ultimately, its on john to be effective and figure things out, both how to stay healthy and how to pitch even if you're not. but i feel like jerry is not helping.

Exactly. I'm pissed at Maine for seemingly being hurt and struggling again..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done?

The past month Maine (and Perez) have seemingly been pitching each game like if they don't perform, they're done. That's a lot of pressure. Now Maine's going to go into his next start (presuming nothing is actually wrong, etc, whatever they decide to do) thinking every single batter could make or break his entire season. When he's got a 3-1 count on a batter in the second, is he going to think "Throw this for a strike, or the next pitch may be for Buffalo?" Pressure! Like this team isn't pressing enough?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'd rather Maine press than suck, but he wouldn't need to press if he hadn't been sucking.

The truth is a lot of pitchers are never the same after shoulder injuries, Maine looks very much like he could be one of them.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: ..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done?

If you're asking me, I'd say that you'll begin by concluding that whatever it is, it's Jerry's fault, and then come up with something, anything, to support your conclusion.

[metirish]

I don't really give a fiddlers fuck who's right or wrong in this instance but I do know I felt fucking good watching Jerry chewing one of his guys out.

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: ..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done? If you're asking me, I'd say that you'll begin by concluding that whatever it is, it's Jerry's fault, and then come up with something, anything, to support your conclusion.

Jerry's a pissy whiny manager, who should stop sniping his players to the media and tell them to their faces like a respectible adult, not storm off the mound muttering to himself and only responding when the pitcher yells at you in the dugout and then not talk to him for 4 hours before letting everyone run wild and say whatever they want to the media. But that's Jerry, and it hasn't gotten him fired yet apparently, and it doesn't change the fact that Maine was..something.

Tell me this though, what hurts? back? shoulder? elbow? left pinky toe? Do these doctors that Maine is supposedly seeing know? Did they tell Maine which doctor to go to? Or is he gonna go get his arm checked out when they wanted him to look at his knee?

Neither of them did any to help their point. Maine bent over in supposed pain, mentioned a slow bullpen, didn't necessarily suggest he was perfectly fine.

Warthen and Manuel never addressed a specific injury. Did Maine go to the trainer after he left? the media circus following that was a mess. "He didn't look right, wasn't throwing hard." is not a diagnosis...where does this leave us? Was it even a one day thing and could he go tonight?

[Guest Edgy DC]

You know, if Jerry didn't talk to Maine for a few hours, I'm guessing he had a game to win.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: ..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done? If you're asking me, I'd say that you'll begin by concluding that whatever it is, it's Jerry's fault, and then come up with something, anything, to support your conclusion. Warthen and Manuel never addressed a specific injury. Did Maine go to the trainer after he left? the media circus following that was a mess. "He didn't look right, wasn't throwing hard." is not a diagnosis...where does this leave us?

"He didn't look right" is indeed a diagnosis, and sometimes, the best damn one. Because the best managers, in addition to being able to control the clubhouse and understand tactics and in-game strategy, can evaluate a player by simply looking at him, sometimes for no more than a few seconds. Gil Hodges had this talent in spades. So did Earl Weaver. And Branch Rickey*. And Davey Johnson and Bobby Valentine. Remove these guys from the dugout and put them in the scouting department, and they'd surely establish themselves as the best judges of talent soon enough. Maybe Jerry had it last night when it mattered.

*General, not field manager.

[Ceetar]

Fine, I'm not dismissing that Manuel very well may have diagnosed Maine correctly, as it pertained to the game last night. But how about going forward? What's the plan? What's the actual injury that you work to correct, or are they just going to take him out back and put him down?

Manuel long ago lost the benefit of the doubt with me. Give me (and Maine) your reasoning and the plan going forward.

Yeah, the best managers can do things like that. (Manuel's not even a good manager) but good managers can also do two things at once, can get a report from the trainer, and can whisper to Maine that maybe they should sit down and talk to each other before the press.

I don't care who's at fault, I just want to know what's happening to fix it.

[bmfc1]

Warthan shouldn't have called him a "liar." He could have said that Maine is a "competitor" who "wants to be out there" but that he and Jerry have to look at the best interests of the team. That would have been fine. Jerry showed him up on the mound and in the dugout and then Warthan did so after the game. That doesn't mean that they were wrong in their actions but should have handled it much, much better.

I wonder if this began before last night. On Wednesday, I was at the game early and stood in the LF bleachers watching BP while the pitchers warmed up below us. I saw Maine and Warthan walk toward the bullpen but they were only near each other, not walking together and talking. They went into the bullpen and then left only 3 or 4 minutes later. Warthan walked back to the dugout by himself while Maine meandered alone in the OF. At the time, I wondered if there was a problem between the two.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Ceetar wrote: Fine, I'm not dismissing that Manuel very well may have diagnosed Maine correctly, as it pertained to the game last night. But how about going forward? What's the plan? What's the actual injury that you work to correct, or are they just going to take him out back and put him down? Manuel long ago lost the benefit of the doubt with me. Give me (and Maine) your reasoning and the plan going forward. Yeah, the best managers can do things like that. (Manuel's not even a good manager) but good managers can also do two things at once, can get a report from the trainer, and can whisper to Maine that maybe they should sit down and talk to each other before the press. I don't care who's at fault, I just want to know what's happening to fix it.

It's 11:30 the morning after this happened. Were you expecting a call from Omar with your Cheerios this morning?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Branch Rickey had a solid decade of managing. While the modern split of field manager and general manger was evolving, and he went upstairs and became a lengend.

While his record was middling (below .500), Bill James describes Rickey as the father of one of three or four main "famiilies" of managers.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Can somebody tell me how Jerry showed him up on the mound? I was entering the park at the time.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Can somebody tell me how Jerry showed him up on the mound? I was entering the park at the time.

He walked out there with everone else, said "you're out" or whatever, turned around and walked off. No interaction, conversation, or practice pitch. Didn't ask him what was hurting, didn't walk off with him (something Ron Darling harped on)

[MFS62]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: "He didn't look right" is indeed a diagnosis, and sometimes, the best damn one. Because the best managers, in addition to being able to control the clubhouse and understand tactics and in-game strategy, can evaluate a player by simply looking at him, sometimes for no more than a few seconds.

In his book Baseball is a Funny Game, Joe Garagiola told a story about a pitcher giving up hard, first-pitch, hits to the first few batters he faced in a game. The manager came running out and asked the catcher if the pitcher had good stuff. The catcher replied "I don't know. I haven't caught one yet."
Sometimes the pitcher isn't the one in the best position to know.

Later