You're Cut

[metirish]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: If Figueroa passes through waivers for the 6th time, will fans stop having heart attacks every time he gets sent down?

Hey , that's no way to talk about a guy coming up on 300 wins......typical Mets to treat a man like that......behind closed doors late at night they did him.

[MFS62]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Carter Calero Parnell Dessens Figueroa Adams

Many arguments can be (and have been) made about why you disagree with each of those cuts.
But they still have been made.

I wanted Figgy to stick, and it looks like he probably will be lost,on waivers or as a free agent. I realize its not like they've lost a sure fire 25 game winner. But still....
Fuck!

Later

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Seawolf17 wrote: Seriously, though, maybe he's part of the answer? Why wait, if you can try to win some games now?

Because the potential difference in value between the shittiest of shitty relievers and Mariano Fucking Rivera at the height of his batter-freezing/cousin-electrocuting powers is about 2.5-3 games. The difference between Mejia and, say, Calero-- best-case scenario-- is significantly less than that.

Because bringing him up now, for use as a reliever-- when his primary weakness as a pitcher is his secondary pitchers, which-- delays his development as a starter by at least a season. Or, if he's a success, and they want to keep him there, we get Joba II.

Because it starts his arbitration clock, which means that if he stays up at the major-league level for a good portion of the year, we'll potentially lose two cheap years of a decent-to-amazing starter for one of an above-average-- best-case scenario-- "eighth-inning guy."

There's other reasons. I think I've ranted about 'em elsewhere, so I won't bore everyone with 'em here.

MFS62 wrote: I wanted Figgy to stick, and it looks like he probably will be lost,on waivers or as a free agent. I realize its not like they've lost a sure fire 25 game winner.

Naw. He'll probably only win 12 or so with the Phils.

[Gwreck]

I keep wavering on who I want fired first, but Omar just took a big leap forward today.

[Guest Edgy DC]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Because the potential difference in value between the shittiest of shitty relievers and Mariano Fucking Rivera at the height of his batter-freezing/cousin-electrocuting powers is about 2.5-3 games.

Sorry. I'm just not prepared to believe that at all.

I also think it's highly speculative that it delays his development as a starter, and I don't give a tinker's damn about his arbitration clock.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

We'll agree to disagree about the value of relievers in general, it seems. I will not stipulate that Mejia seems anything more than a marginal on-field upgrade-- at best-- over the other options available for that roster/pen slot. Would you?

Regarding his development, well, setting aside the stretching-out business, the kid simply doesn't have reliable, commandable secondary pitches. He will not have significant opportunity-- innings or role-wise-- to work on said secondary pitches in the major-league bullpen. He may, in fact, be actively discouraged from doing so in-game. Therefore, if he will be a starter again at some point in the future, he will have to get said work in somewhere. If that work is not being done this year, it will be done at some point after this year. Ergo, if he's successful in the 'pen, he loses a year. At least. (He may just end up going Joba.)

And regarding arb time... if you choose not to give a shit about whether or not we lose cheap service time out of the guy, hey, that's your prerogative. But it has a significant impact on the way the team will be constructed, and on what kind of supporting players the team can afford to retain/acquire... an impact that will begin to be felt as soon as 2-3 years from now. Also, it's exactly the sort of thing that a prudent general manager should care about, even if you don't.

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's a burst of luck if a pitcher is still active and reasonably effective six years down the road. Six years. I don't think it's worth getting hung up on. If he's still healthy then, and pitching well, then those who decided to promote him when they did will sure look vindicated.

Check out the National League ERA leaders from six years ago.

1. Peavy (SDP) 2.27
2. Johnson (ARI) 2.60
3. Sheets (MIL) 2.70
4. Zambrano (CHC) 2.75
5. Clemens (HOU) 2.98
6. Perez (PIT) 2.98
7. Pavano (FLA) 3.00
8. Schmidt (SFG) 3.20
9. Leiter (NYM) 3.21
10. Perez (LAD) 3.25

Number one remains a very good pitcher
Numbers two and five and nine are retired.
Number three is coming off a years of injury.
Number four is still solid but fading at only 29.
Numbers six and seven and eight and ten have been mostly struggling and wasting somebody's money. A lot of it in some cases.

If you're reluctant as hell (and most everybody is) to sign an established healthy star pitcher for six years, you certianly don't make a promotion decision on a pitcher based on whether maybe that's going to impact his re-signability six years down the road. If he's good enough then to care about signing. Too much is out of your control before you come to that bridge. Worry about the things you can control.

I don't want him promoted now either, because I want him to pitch his way out of the minors, but there's generations of precedent of successful starting pitchers who have initially appeared as relievers.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I know I'm gonna regret this post and the ensuing exchange about 20 seconds after I send this off but what does promoting Mejia today have to do with the fact that six years ago, Clemens, Johnson and Leiter each turned in more than respectable seasons in the twilight of their respective careers? I'm more confused than critical here. Really.

By the way, I'm on board with every single point LWFS has been raising in this thread. So I'll just concur instead of repeating the same ideas in a different way. I've also got another rant about deciding today that Mejia, or any specific relief pitcher -really- is going to pitch the 8th inning, before the actual game is at hand ... before even knowing who the hell is due up in the eighth inning .. before knowing the game situation ... which way the wind is blowing ... where the coolest Baseball Annies are sitting in that particular game. I guess this is really a rant about relief pitcher usage in general and not necessarily limited to Mejia. Or relief usage in general but not including the Red Sox, or some of the other, you know, smart franchises.

[nymr83]

Mejia is 19 and hasn't pitched above AA, I'm in favor of leaving him down there. If he has a chance to be a good starter then I want him starting in AA/AAA at that age.
How many innings would he have potentially pitched for the big club in April anyway? 10? lets see what the other guys can do and if the bullpen is still a mess in a month we can convert 19 yaer old starters into relievers then, there shouldn't be any rush.

I'm not especially happy about Carter getting cut though, especially with Murphy hurt thats alot more than I want to see of Mike Jacobs

[bmfc1]

Can anyone give me a logical argument for keeping Nieve over Figueroa?

I know it's a business, but I think of Figueroa telling Kevin Burkhardt the other day that he's never been on a major league roster on Opening Day. That, and the fact that he pitched great (other than one outing) in ST. Why do we even have ST games if you can't make the team based on your performance? Why not just have workouts for a month and then start the season?

I know that this isn't what will or will not put the team in the playoffs, and I have nothing against Nieve, but Figueroa should be on the team. Heck, I'd put him in the rotation and sent Perez to Buffalo (or Siberia, if I could) but that's unrealistic.

And why Igarashi or Takahashi? Or did the Wilpons tell Omar to keep them on the team to sell Mets stuff in Japan?

And LWFS is right about Mejia. The Mets aren't winning anything this year, other than "Team With the Worst GM", so send him to AA or AAA, and let him become a good SP--it's not like the Mets have a plethora in that category.

[G-Fafif]

David Lennon on the FAN last night was unsurprised about Figueroa, said the chances of him making the club were always slim, said the team feels he'll pass through waivers, certainly more readily than Nieve, which I found surprising. Figueroa did nothing wrong dating back to last September. While Nieve didn't have as good a spring, he also did little wrong besides getting injured last year. Gosh, what an embarrassment of pitching riches. Green's and Perez's salaries may have been the true determining factors in shaping this staff; certainly Ollie has no good reason to be anywhere above Buffalo (per bmfc).

The human element is Figueroa gave an interview to Kevin Burkhardt the other day (also per bmfc) in which he was on a cloud talking about lining up on Opening Day at Citi Field, delving into his Mets fandom (once nudged) to the point of remembering how they used to play "Celebration" after Met wins at Shea. I wonder if Nelson had taken a different life path, remaining a Mets fan without ever having become a baseball player how he'd view "his" predicament. Would Nelson From Brooklyn (first time, long time) be upset about a hypothetical veteran pitcher who's all but earned it not making the staff or would he be excited that the Mets were giving Mejia a shot?

Which I am, incidentally. Unless this is Tim Leary in the howling cold winds of Wrigley Field, a taste isn't gonna kill him or us, arbitration clocks and the like notwithstanding. It's also not all that surprising given that the Mets have taken a relatively untested rookie north three of the past four springs: Joe Smith in '07, Bobby Parnell in '09, now Mejia. Third time's a charm, let's see some talent. And if he's overmatched, send him down.

There'll be time for the Caleros and the Dessenses and everybody else to bring us down to earth. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong -- but I'm excited, and either way, it's not my call, so I prefer to have something to be excited about and I'll hope I'm right to have this impulse not for the sake of being on target about projections but for the sake of the Mets being on target in their assessments.

I'm also glad to see Takahashi make the team and hope he begins to air the lingering unpleasantness out of No. 47. Casey Fossum was no help in that regard.

[Guest Edgy DC]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I've also got another rant about deciding today that Mejia, or any specific relief pitcher -really- is going to pitch the 8th inning, before the actual game is at hand ... before even knowing who the hell is due up in the eighth inning .. before knowing the game situation ... which way the wind is blowing ... where the coolest Baseball Annies are sitting in that particular game.

I agree with that. I don't know that I'd particularly absolve the Red Sox, but I certainly agree that the quest to find a maigcal eighth-innng guy is a waste of mental and emotional entergy, and a good deal strategically counterproductive.

Who was good six years ago is a point about worrying over arbitration clocks.

[Frayed Knot]

I'm not that concerned over the so-called 'arbitration clock' either.
If Mejia pitches well enough this season to last most or all of the year at the big league level and then goes on to tack on full seasons in 2011 & 2012 then he'll be eligible for arb in the winter of 12/13 instead of 13/14 - but that also means he's been pitching well all that time and so if they have to pay him $6mil instead of $2 (or whatever) then I'm OK with it. It might also mean FA-gency at the end of 2015 instead of 2016 but, again, that could also be a real good thing and that scenario still only plays out if and only if he spends virtually every day from Monday thru the end of 2015 on the big league roster - hardly a given based on one OD assignment.

My problem is that they're seemingly promoting him earlier than would be ideal just so they can say that they've got someone to fill a specifically defined 'role' - one which many fans & media have deemed to be a necessity and one which they are probably reluctant to let go "un-filled" lest they look like they're contradicting themselves after the crowing they were doing just a year ago after they pulled off a big trade specifically for that purpose. And while I don't mind a guy pitching as a reliever for a spell even if the ultimate goal is for him to be a starter down the road, I wish there were more compelling reasons why he is being thrust into the role NOW!!!! other than to 'create a buzz' or because they're not sure they don't think they have anyone else to pigeonhole there.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, I'm pretty much there.

And I need to correct myself that, by looking back six years, I'm thinking in terms of free agency, not arbitration. But on that score, who was the last pitcher who came up with the Mets who reached free agency with the Mets after an uninterrupted tenure?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

fwiw, the Mets specifically said they would not use JM in that role, and that, though they'd prefer it otherwise the 8th inning would be a committee, so I'm not sure the 8th inning thing belongs with the motivation for having done this. One justification that's compelling if not scientific is that the players feel he belongs. Anyway I hate to feel like a bad fan for planning to enjoy whstever this experiment brings.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

One justification that's compelling if not scientific is that the players feel he belongs.

Well, then, the team should probably stop babying Reyes, then. (It's nice, but I don't find it that compelling.)

I disagree strongly with the moves they made (the reasons for which some protest and some hail; so it goes). That doesn't mean I'm going to root like hell for the kid to go Human Torch on Chipper Jones, Utley and the rest, and go absolutely apeshit when and if he does.

That said, if he succeeds, given who's at the tiller (and presuming they're still there at season's end), I have little doubt we're headed for NextMarianoLand with the kid. And that's a big part of what frustrates me.

[smg58]

This is frustrating. I can sort of understand starting Jacobs -- I disagree with it, but I can at least see it -- but there is absolutely no defensible reason whatsoever, given recent history and especially given spring performance, why Chris Carter is going to Buffalo and Frank Catalanotto is staying with the Mets. If it has to do with options, why was Figueroa cut? Calero is an established quality reliever. Igarashi is not only a less known commodity than Calero, he's a less known commodity than Parnell. And what part of his 8.53 ERA and 9/8 BB/K ratio this spring made him look like a major league pitcher? Parnell had a 3.46 ERA out of the pen last year; what did he do wrong? And like Carter, what exactly did Figueroa have to do? As for Mejia, keep in mind that six of the nine runs he allowed weren't earned, so you can't go by his ERA to judge his readiness.

[nymr83]

bmfc1 wrote: Why do we even have ST games if you can't make the team based on your performance? Why not just have workouts for a month and then start the season?

ST is to get ready for the season. why play games? probably mostly for ticket sales, but also to see a larger variety of pitchers/pitches/batters than you would in intrasquad.
I'd rather make decisions based on what i know about players going in than based on 40 ABs 1/2 of which are against guys who will never sniff the majors. The only thing I'm looking for in ST (in terms of MLB roster decisions) is to see how guys recovering from injury are looking, are they ready or do they need "extended spring training"?

smg58 wrote: This is frustrating. I can sort of understand starting Jacobs -- I disagree with it, but I can at least see it -- but there is absolutely no defensible reason whatsoever, given recent history and especially given spring performance, why Chris Carter is going to Buffalo and Frank Catalanotto is staying with the Mets. If it has to do with options, why was Figueroa cut? Calero is an established quality reliever. Igarashi is not only a less known commodity than Calero, he's a less known commodity than Parnell. And what part of his 8.53 ERA and 9/8 BB/K ratio this spring made him look like a major league pitcher? Parnell had a 3.46 ERA out of the pen last year; what did he do wrong? And like Carter, what exactly did Figueroa have to do?

Igarshi was brought in based on a long body of work in Japan that the Mets feel comfortable with, I'd rather rely on that than say "oh no he walked 8 guys in the spring getting ready"
agreed on Carter and Parnell, they should bnoth make the team based on what we know they can do from last year, forget spring training

[Guest Edgy DC]

smg58 wrote: This is frustrating. I can sort of understand starting Jacobs -- I disagree with it, but I can at least see it -- but there is absolutely no defensible reason whatsoever, given recent history and especially given spring performance, why Chris Carter is going to Buffalo and Frank Catalanotto is staying with the Mets.

I'm as big a Carter booster as anybody, but the fact is that Catalonotto plays more positions, and probably plays them better, and that's a defensible reason, whether we agree with it or not.

[nymr83]

Once they made the decision to go with Jacobs over Carter, taking the more versatile Cattalanatto over Carter for the bench is at least defensible. Its the initial Jacobs > Carter decision that bothers me more. I'd rather the Mets would recognize that its worth finding room for Carter and then deciding who else they need.

When Reyes is healthy I'd be very annoyed to see Cora AND Catalonatto on the team holding down Carter.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Sean Green allowing 4 earned on 2 hits, a walk, and a plunk in 2/3 IP today may contribute to landing his ass in Buffalo.

[MFS62]

Since there was no IGT for today's game, I guess this can go here.
This is the second recent game in which GMJ didn't catch an apparently catchable fly ball that led to trouble. For those not following the game, neither GMJ (CF)or Pagan (RF) went for a ball that fell between them for a hit. it led to a grand slam. It is the responsibility of the CF to take charge on plays like that.

In the last game Pelfrey pitched (yesterday?), he let a fly ball bounce off his BODY trying for a basket catch (why a basket catch? He misjudged it in the first place.) that allowed two runs to score and kept the inning alive.
I can't believe he's still here (and Fernando isn't).

Later

[Frayed Knot]

MFS62 wrote: I can't believe he's still here (and Fernando isn't).

C'mon!
Mathews is here to be a backup - the backup's backup to be specific - and that's not a role you want to put your best prospect in, especially one that's not really a CFer.

When Reyes is healthy I'd be very annoyed to see Cora AND Catalonatto on the team holding down Carter.

Well when Reyes comes back it's obviously that one of the SS goes - and almost certainly that someone is going to be Tejeda (see reasons for Martinez, F. above) even if he's the one who gets most of the starts in the interim (is "most" even a logical concept when talking about five games?)
What happens with the whole Catalanatto/Carter/Jacobs love triangle is not going to have anything to do with the return of Jose-Jose.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Christ. Wottashitshow.

Right-hander Kiko Calero, who did not make the team out of spring training despite a 1.95 ERA with the Florida Marlins last season, is being given the choice of whether he wants to report to Buffalo. The Mets won�t force him into playing for the Bisons. Calero would earn $15,000 a month with Buffalo.

That's kindly of them, to not hold him to the minor-league contract he signed. Why hold onto a guy who had the best 2009 of any reliever you have? Just because you've got 3-4 guys on the roster who've never thrown a major-league pitch? Pssh.*

Hell, why not offer the same option to Santana and Wright, and let them walk to teams of their choice, if they so desire? I mean, that's only fair-- they've done their time.

*I get that this is sometimes the case with veterans signed to major-league contracts... that there may be a verbal agreement in place with the guy that if he doesn't make it, he'll be allowed to walk. But, Christ... there's no nobility in shedding a potentially-valuable human resource.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Are we sure that this doesn't mean that he can either go to Buffalo or continue working at the Extended Spring Training camp in PSL? I've read in a few places that the only reason Calero is not on the roster is that they feel he needs a bit more work to get ready.

[MFS62]

Mets fans aren't the only folks questioning general managerial decisions at cut-down time. So are the A's .... players:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Cust-angry-after-demotion-Chavez-bewildered-by-?urn=mlb,231977

Later

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Step in off the ledge and close the window. Per Adam Rubin (via MetsBlog) Kiko Calero will be reporting to Buffalo.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/04/phillies-have-interest-in-nelson-figueroa.html

This has ass-biting potential.

[nymr83]

If the phils need pitching depth we can trade the versatile Pat Misch for Domonic Brown. limited time offer.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

The Phillies have interest in Nelson Figueroa of the Mets, according to Jayson Stark of ESPN.com. The 35-year-old righty is out of options, and has been outrighted before, so he can choose to become a free agent instead of reporting to the minor leagues if he clears waivers. Figueroa, whose waivers expire Wednesday, pitched for the Phillies in 2001.

That makes sense. Because he's, y'know, useful.

I feel comfortable saying that Sean Green wouldn't get quite as much interest from them (or others).