Putz

[Centerfield]

Some disturbing stuff said by JJ in this article:

http://www.csnchicago.com/01/22/10/Sox-Drawer-The-Truth-About-JJ-Putz/landing.html?blockID=167614&feedID=665

If the stuff he is saying is true, it sheds some light on the way 2009 unfolded, and that maybe the injuries weren't just a rash of bad luck, but some major fucking incomptenence on the part of the Mets.

Specifically:

�When the trade went down last year, I never really had a physical with the Mets,� said Putz. �I had the bone spur (in the right elbow). It was discovered the previous year in Seattle, and it never got checked out by any other doctors until I got to spring training, and the spring training physical is kind of a formality. It was bugging me all through April, and in May I got an injection. It just got to the point where I couldn�t pitch. I couldn�t throw strikes, my velocity was way down.�

Disturbing.

Especially when the Mets told Putz not to talk about being hurt with the media.

�I knew that I wasn�t right. I wasn�t healthy. The toughest part was having to face the media and tell them that you feel fine, even though you know there�s something wrong and they don�t want you telling them that you�re banged up.�

By June, Putz was concerned that the pain in his elbow would start affecting his shoulder, so he had surgery to remove the bone spur, and was supposed to miss 10-to-12 weeks. However, when he tried to come back in August, he felt some tightness in his right forearm.

Very disturbing.

I can't imagine that the Mets would be this incompetent. But the Beltran situation has me wondering.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

For someone who was asked not to talk about injuries to the media Putz did an awful lot of talking to the media about being injured. He's also on record complaining about his cortisone shots early last year.

Not to say the Mets screwed up this acquisition from the start, being interested primarily in creating the illusion that they'd gone and solved all their problems without necessarily solving them.

[Guest Edgy DC]

My greater concern with how the Mets treated Putz was the frequency with which Manuel used him.

[metirish]

Putz was just never happy with the trade, being the 8th inning guy wasn't for him , didn't get his juices going .If what he says is true then it just made a bat fit worse form the get go.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Not to say the Mets screwed up this acquisition from the start, being interested primarily in creating the illusion that they'd gone and solved all their problems without necessarily solving them.[/quote:5te4bpa3]

If you think that the Mets did a crappy job of solving all of their 2008 problems, what are you thinking about the current Mets off-season?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Folks also have every motivation when starting a new job to explain the failures of the previous job as being all somebody else's fault and not something that remains attached to them. And, in fact, the injustice of it all has them even more motivated, if that's possible.

Remember how Paul LoDuca was so happy to catch on with the Nats because he was going to make the Mets pay 18 times a year?

[Ceetar]

Putz was just never happy with the trade, being the 8th inning guy wasn't for him , didn't get his juices going .If what he says is true then it just made a bat fit worse form the get go.[/quote:30ww20zl]

This sounds like Putz trying to justify a bad performance. Not there aren't disturbing aspects of it. Specifically the "Don't talk about it" aspect, even if it was just them trying to keep the press positive on the trade news.

Did he have a physical or not? He says he "didn't really" have a physical, and calls the one he had in Spring Training a 'formality'. Well? Did he have a physical? What was done? Why, since this was known about, did Seattle clear him to pitch in 2008? and the Mets in the Spring? and the WBC?

He seems to say the Mets were too aggressive shutting him down when he returned from the injury last season, but then says they were too soft/slow in getting the 'injury' fixed when he first reported pain in April/May. Well? Which is it?

Could he just be pissed that he had to take a 66% paycut next year? Trying to justify his poor performance?

[metirish]

Here is how espn reported the trade, look for Omar's comments

LAS VEGAS -- The New York Mets overhauled their much-maligned bullpen with two big moves Wednesday, obtaining J.J. Putz from Seattle as part of a three-team, 12-player trade that gives them a set-up man for new closer Francisco Rodriguez. Hours after completing a $37 million, three-year contract with Rodriguez, New York dealt seven players -- six to the Mariners and one to Cleveland -- to get three back in a huge swap at the winter meetings. "All I kept on hearing in the streets of New York when you go get bagels in the morning was, 'Omar, please address the bullpen,'" Mets general manager Omar Minaya said. "Well, to all you Mets fans, we've addressed the bullpen." New York shipped reliever Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez, lefty Jason Vargas and three minor leaguers to the Mariners for Putz, center fielder Jeremy Reed and reliever Sean Green in the first trade by new Seattle general manager Jack Zduriencik. Promising outfielder Franklin Gutierrez was sent from the Indians to Seattle. Cleveland got reliever Joe Smith from the Mets and 23-year-old second baseman Luis Valbuena from the Mariners. "It helps all of us," Zduriencik said. An All-Star in 2007 when he saved 40 games, Putz was 6-5 with a 3.88 ERA and 15 saves in 23 chances last season when he missed long stretches with rib cage and elbow injuries. But Minaya wasn't concerned about the pitcher's health, saying New York had a scout at his final game of the season and Putz maintained a 98-99 mph velocity. "It's about winning championships," Minaya said. "I've always said it's about the team and putting teams first and going for that ring. To win, you've got to sacrifice yourself." Before the trade was announced, Putz's agent, Craig Landis, said the right-hander wanted to remain a closer. But Minaya said he spoke with Putz, who was excited about his new team and role. "It's a new challenge and I'm excited about it," Putz said, according to the Seattle Times. "I'm going to a new team that's going to be very competitive. Frankie's a great closer and with Sean Green going as well, we should have a great bullpen." The Indians had been interested in acquiring Putz before nearing a two-year contract with free-agent closer Kerry Wood, who needed to take a physical before that deal could be finalized. Once the Indians closed in on Wood, the three-team trade came together quickly. "We dealt from an area of depth," Cleveland GM Mark Shapiro said, referring to his club's young outfielders. The key to the deal for Seattle was Gutierrez, who batted .248 with eight homers and 41 RBIs. A skilled defender, he played right field in Cleveland because the Indians have All-Star Grady Sizemore in center. "That's one of the things that we wanted to do is make our defense stronger," Zduriencik said. "I think it's helped us shore up our prospect status." Zduriencik said it was uncertain who would close for Seattle and too early to determine what role Heilman would have. Heilman was inconsistent in his set-up role with the Mets and would prefer to be a starter. He was 3-8 with a 5.21 ERA last season and was among the bullpen culprits as New York folded in September for the second straight season. When Billy Wagner got hurt, the rest of the relievers struggled as they tried to adjust to different roles. "We've proven that sometimes, unfortunately, one closer is not enough," Minaya said. Smith, a submarine-style right-hander who gets plenty of grounders, was 6-3 with a 3.55 ERA. "Joe Smith clearly goes right in the major league bullpen as a guy we've had long-term interest in," Shapiro said. "A different look, complements our 'pen well. We think he can be an important part of the back end of a 'pen." The three minor leaguers New York sent to Seattle were first baseman Mike Carp, right-hander Maikel Cleto and outfielder Ezequiel Carrera. Putz will earn $5.3 million next season, and the Mets inherit an $8.9 million option for 2010 with a $1 million buyout. New York had 29 blown saves in 72 chances this year, and its 4.25 bullpen ERA ranked 13th in the NL. "To get one closer like Frankie would have been a good winter. I think to get two guys like this is a great winter," Minaya said.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

"Minaya wasn't concerned about the pitcher's health, saying New York had a scout at his final game of the season and Putz maintained a 98-99 mph velocity" : PRE-TRADE PHYSICAL

::

"An insider in the front office said that the Mets think Jason Bay is a better defender than Matt Holliday, based on Bay's having played center field earlier in his career" : DEFENSIVE EVALUATION?

[smg58]

Putz has reasons to embellish the story, but it's still damning.

It's not clear what never really having a physical when the trade went down means, but the alternatives I can think of are embarrassing. It seems that the Mets had the opportunity to check out the bone spur, and either failed to do that or chose to gloss over the findings while parting ways with seven players. And then Manuel had Putz on a 100-inning pace in the middle of May. There's no way to spin this that makes the Mets not look incompetent.

As for not wanting Putz to address it in the media -- you don't want a player making excuses for himself, but if he's hurt he's hurt.

It's easy to take shots at the Mets right now, but the people running the team have put themselves in this position, and what Putz said is consistent with the general impression people currently have of the Wilpons, Minaya, and Manuel. And the impression might be accurate.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Not to say the Mets screwed up this acquisition from the start, being interested primarily in creating the illusion that they'd gone and solved all their problems without necessarily solving them.[/quote:1uigheu6]

If you think that the Mets did a crappy job of solving all of their 2008 problems, what are you thinking about the current Mets off-season?[/quote:1uigheu6]

I'm secretly enjoying this offseason and its complete lack of sex appeal. The Mets I think need a break from making big, showy moves that prove how attentively they're listening to the John Harpers out there. If you're going to hope a team adds 20+ victories from one year to the next you may as well try it with the same group of guys.

[Ceetar]

As for not wanting Putz to address it in the media -- you don't want a player making excuses for himself, but if he's hurt he's hurt.

It's easy to take shots at the Mets right now, but the people running the team have put themselves in this position, and what Putz said is consistent with the general impression people currently have of the Wilpons, Minaya, and Manuel. And the impression might be accurate.[/quote:241xtcyx]

Well yeah, if he's hurt he's hurt. But he wouldn't have had a 'last game of the season' in Seattle, or pitched in the WBC if he was hurt. That was probably them trying to control the spin on the trade. I mean, we'd have killed the Mets if they'd have let Putz say he had an injury.

The "never go the extra mile" perception seems to fit here. They trusted Putz's medical reports, they trusted Bay's CF ability in the past, they trusted GMJ's ability based on a contract from years ago..Manuel plays Tatis because he's "a guy that in the past when he's going good he can hit one out"

Some if it's probably them just finding something to say that justifies the overall process they used to make that decision, but some of it might well be they didn't do more than find one thing to support the trade/move/decision.

It's not any of these things that are wrong, this Putz thing doesn't really seem like much on it's own, but it's the overall body of work. I mean, they didn't give Mo Vaughn a proper physical/evaulation either did they? I tend to think it's the lack of one clear 'full autonomy' type person that can make a decision. Like a game of telephone by the time the move gets to the guy that signs off on it, it's been distorted.

[MFS62]

Don't teams at the very least get medical files from a player's prior team?

Really, not trying to be sarcastic.
I don't know the answer to this.

Anyone know?
Is it mandatory?

Later

[metirish]

Don't teams at the very least get medical files from a player's prior team?

Really, not trying to be sarcastic.
I don't know the answer to this.

Anyone know?
Is it mandatory?

Later[/quote:v5ye8eav]


I don't know how that works but there would need to be a certain amount of good faith going on. IIRC some of the fallout from the Kazmir for Zambrano trade was the rays not sending Zambrano's current x-rays for the Mets to view...or it may have been the Mets taken Tampa's word that he was fine when in fact the x-rays showed he wasn't....

Something like that

[Frayed Knot]

Don't teams at the very least get medical files from a player's prior team?

Yes they do.

And that Putz had bone chips wasn't a secret. It's just one of those conditions that pitchers can pitch with right up until that point where they can't pitch with it. I suspect what the Mets did was basically hope that his final half-season in 2008 showed that he could last a season like he was. Like a lot of things recently, it turned out to be a rather expensive gamble that didn't work.

[Ceetar]

Don't teams at the very least get medical files from a player's prior team?

Yes they do.

And that Putz had bone chips wasn't a secret. It's just one of those conditions that pitchers can pitch with right up until that point where they can't pitch with it. I suspect what the Mets did was basically hope that his final half-season in 2008 showed that he could last a season like he was. Like a lot of things recently, it turned out to be a rather expensive gamble that didn't work.

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's hard to imagine that the Mets coming out and saying (or even proving) that they did indeed give him a physical would make them look better. The guy got hurt. Whatever diligence they display can be shown to have eventually failed.

What's clearly true is that (1) the team and the fans knew he was nursing pain, (2) they went ahead anyway, and (3) whether he was asked to talk about his pain or not, he talked about it, as did the Mets.

[batmagadanleadoff]

The issues here are whether or not the Mets adequately examined Putz; whether they failed to diagnose a discoverable injury, and if so, whether or not they asked Putz to cover for the Mets. That Putz might have talked about his injury does not mitigate any screwups the Mets might have commited.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Putz made an issue of talking about it and that's why I and others responded to his contention. Is that OK?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Putz made an issue of talking about it and that's why I and others responded to his contention. Is that OK?[/quote:1u79ztzu]

I think our posts can co-exist side by side in total harmony. Of course it's OK to talk about what Putz talked about. Putz's first-hand comments might be the most relevant statements on the matter, and so they matter. But Putz's criticism of the Mets way of handling him shouldn't by itself, acquit the Mets of anything. I'm merely saying that you -but not you, specifically. I mean that generic you guy- can't blame the Putz guy for talking.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Question.

If Putz knew/suspected he was hurt, why did he pitch in the WBC?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

And if the Mets didn't know he was hurt (how could they if they hadn't run a physical), why would they ask him not to discuss his injuries?

I wonder if Putz will address the fact that he was fat last year.

[batmagadanleadoff]

And if the Mets didn't know he was hurt (how could they if they hadn't run a physical), why would they ask him not to discuss his injuries?

I wonder if Putz will address the fact that he was fat last year.[/quote:3bser9c9]

Good question. Maybe the Mets discovered an injury to Putz long after they reasonably should have. What's fat? Like Mo Vaughn fat?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Seven-thousand-calories-a-day fat.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I would eat 7,000 calories a day if only I could.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Don't care so much about the fat. Me, I'm just curious as to whether the Philly-Special douchebeard was real or fake.

And oh yeah-- the Mets confirmed that Putz speaks the truth:

�In our review of the player�s medical records in the acquisition of J.J. Putz, we were aware that he had a bone spur before the trade. He had the same condition in 2008 and was able to pitch with it. J.J. underwent an exam during Spring Training and an additional exam and MRI before he was cleared to play in last year�s World Baseball Classic. Unfortunately the spur did flare up again in May, and he missed the rest of the season. We are happy to hear he is feeling well, and wish him success with the White Sox.�

[metirish]

harper of course is on this today....only thing of note is this

Putz, in fact, was furious with the Mets, believing that the front office chose not to act on a recommendation by team physician Dr. David Altcheck to have surgery, convincing the reliever instead to get a cortisone shot that would allow him to continue pitching. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2010/02/02/2010-02-02_putz_hurls_blame_at_met_quacks.html#ixzz0eO5waFIt

Not sure if we knew that, it's hard to keep up with this stuff.

[Benjamin Grimm]

The pattern that seems to be emerging is that the Mets doctors prefer to take a wait-and-see attitude, hoping that things will get better through rest, rather than opting for surgery which might offer a more lasting solution but would also lead to more lost time.

While you certainly don't want to rush everybody into surgery for every injury, the Mets may have leaned too heavily on the wait-and-see side. It certainly appears that Beltran thought so.

[Centerfield]

I don't see how even the biggest apologist can argue against the incompetence of the Mets front office. I guess it's possible that Delgado, Beltran and Putz are all lying. It's possible that the Reyes confusion was all due to the LA doctors. And that Adam Rubin was pissed that he never got a call-back from the Mets.

But it is far more likely that there is some truth to all of this. And even if one of these are true, it's incredibly damning.

More than ever, I feel like the Wilpons need to take a back seat in the management of this team and hire a smart guy who can run the show. That guy is not Omar.

[Centerfield]

The pattern that seems to be emerging is that the Mets doctors prefer to take a wait-and-see attitude, hoping that things will get better through rest, rather than opting for surgery which might offer a more lasting solution but would also lead to more lost time.

While you certainly don't want to rush everybody into surgery for every injury, the Mets may have leaned too heavily on the wait-and-see side. It certainly appears that Beltran thought so.[/quote:1haock3g]

Actually, the pattern that seems to be emerging is that the Mets doctors recommend surgery, but that the Mets officials prefer to take a wait-and-see attitude notwithstanding the recommendation of the medical staff.

That is why this is so troubling.