That Other Hall of Fame

[Guest Number 6]

Yeah, I guess that I did use the word broadest, but I wouldn't indict him that deeply myself. But we can reasonably assume he cheated. He refuses to clarify the extent. But I guess I shouldn't defend any conclusion but my own.

[HahnSolo]

Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but can someone offer an argument why Barry Larkin is a slam-dunk in some people's eyes? Cuz I don't see it. I see a guy who played 9 full seasons, who's 162-game averages are nothing so special. Numbers? I'll sound like a grouchy old sportswriter, but no 100-RBI seasons, and only two 100-runs seasons. No black ink, though he did win one MVP. Then again, Piazza and Karros, and even Bichette had better years (and like Larkin, their teams made the postseason).

Help a friend out. Why should I advocate Barry Larkin for Cooperstown?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I describe his productivity as a barbell. His career takes a harsh and unlikely turn after 30. Considering his incriminating behavior, I associate these. I want him to be more forthcoming and cooperative in helping me understand his career.

I don't think he should get past a panel considering him for baseball's highest honor by lying and refusing to answer when cornered.

[Centerfield]

The reason I ask what you do with the ballplayer where there is no evidence presented, one way or the other, is because it will illustrate what presumption you are working from. Innocent until proven guilty, or guilty until proven innocent. You cannot avoid subscribing to one of those two theories.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Sure you can. There's the "innoncent until I'm satisfied of his guilt enough to pass on him" position. We're not indicting the guy. We're enshrining him.

I'm not really concerned with the legal parallel of presumed innocence. Sure, it's kind and it's compassionate. Go with it if you want. I'm concerned with drawing or not drawing conclusions based on his refusal to testify. I have no problem with doing that.

It's not guilt or innocence at all, in the end, that we're trying to determine, but qualification for the Hall of Fame.

[Centerfield]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I was simply asking you to clarify if your default point is that of innocence or that of guilt.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but can someone offer an argument why Barry Larkin is a slam-dunk in some people's eyes? Cuz I don't see it. I see a guy who played 9 full seasons, who's 162-game averages are nothing so special. Numbers? I'll sound like a grouchy old sportswriter, but no 100-RBI seasons, and only two 100-runs seasons. No black ink, though he did win one MVP. Then again, Piazza and Karros, and even Bichette had better years (and like Larkin, their teams made the postseason).

Help a friend out. Why should I advocate Barry Larkin for Cooperstown?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I was simply asking you to clarify if your default point is that of innocence or that of guilt.[/quote:1ou9llok]

As I said, innocent.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm going to be petty and withdraw my vote for Larkin. I'm just now recalling that he rejected a trade to the Mets. BOOOOO!

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'm going to be petty and withdraw my vote for Larkin. I'm just now recalling that he rejected a trade to the Mets. BOOOOO!

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

An ex-Mets' perspective...

Brent Mayne posts who he's vote for on his blog...



2010 Hall of Fame Nominees
December 2nd, 2009

It�s about that time of year again�Hall of Fame voting time.

Here are the nominees on the ballot this year and here is how I would vote if given the chance.

NEW CANDIDATES

1.. Roberto Alomar - yep, I�d vote him in. 10 plus gold gloves, hitting, baserunning, incredible instincts, World Series teams, didn�t get injured much, the whole package.

2. Kevin Appier - if being strange were one of the criteria for getting in, he�d be a first balloter. Otherwise, I love you Kev but no dice.

3. Ellis Burks � one of the great guys to play, but again nope.

4. Andres Galarraga - great nickname �the big cat� and was dominant for a long while, but just not enough.

5. Pat Hentgen - a Cy Young award and definitely a battler, but no.

6. Barry Larkin - real tough one for me�.I�don�t�.think�.this�. time. Fantastic player, a million All-Star appearances. If not for Ozzie Smith, he�d have a million Gold Gloves. A world series ring, a 30-30 year, a great leader, etc. I just don�t know. I could go either way. A what the hell, I�ll throw him a vote. You�re in Barry.

7. Edgar Martinez � best right handed hitter I ever played against. Maybe the best hitter period. I think his hitting style has influenced everybody since. Must have been allergic to the leather though. For that reason, it�s a tough call. But because the O was so great, he gets my vote�yes.

8. Fred McGriff - nah. A great player, a dominant player for a while . Another candidate for best nickname ever with �crime dog�. I just can�t do it though. Maybe I would have voted for him if he hadn�t been a spokesman for those Tom Emanski ESPN baseball training videos�.that big ol hat and all.

9. Mike Jackson, Ray Lankford, Eric Karros, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Todd Zeile, and Robin Ventura. No, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

10. Brent Mayne - There must have been some kind of misprint because I�m eligible but didn�t get on the ballot. Like I said, must be a misprint�it�s ok, everybody makes mistakes. Would I vote for him? Hell ya. Decent hitter, no pop, great all around guy, and the best defensive catcher in the history of the game. Period.

[Guest Edgy DC]

There's got to be a way I can get paid for reading Brent Mayne's blog.

[metirish]

Alomar oh his time with the Mets in an interview with Klapisch.

Alomar is equally clear-eyed about his disappointing tenure with the Mets. He batted just .266 in 2002, dropping 70 points off his previous year�s average in Cleveland. Alomar was hitting .265 halfway through the 2003 season before he was traded to the White Sox. Realizing he was quickly losing his elite skills � �I never would�ve allowed myself to be remembered as just an average player stealing money� � Alomar retired in 2004 at age 36. His mediocrity as a Met still gnaws at him, but Alomar believes the culture of underachievement affected everyone at Shea. �No one played up to their potential in those years; that�s the only way I could explain it,� he said. �There were a lot of unhappy guys, and that rubs off on the way you perform on the field. I wasn�t myself, but no one else was, either.�

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

They did battle, though.

*Also, Cliffie, Jason Phillips, Piazza, Trachsel and a bunch of others disagree, ass.

[bmfc1]

The Veteran's Committee votes in That SOB Whitey Herzog and Doug "God" Harvey. Nothing for Gil Hodges or Marvin Miller.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think Herzog is a good choice and it's about time an ump got selected.

I think Marvin Miller's outsideness really seems to be a misunderstanding over whether he fits inside the categories they feel they should be considering.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I think Herzog is a good choice and it's about time an ump got selected.
[/quote:33tguh6n]

Yeah. I have no beef with either selection.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Whitey Herzog, a six-time division winner and manager of the 1982 World Series champion St. Louis Cardinals, and Doug Harvey, a five-time World Series umpire, were elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee for Managers and Umpires, it was announced on Monday.

Harvey received 15 of a possible 16 votes. Herzog received 14 votes and longtime Pirates manager Danny Murtaugh received eight.

The Veterans Committee for Executives/Pioneers did not elect anyone. Nine votes of a possible 12 were needed. Former Tigers owner John Fetzer received eight votes, former Players Association chief Marvin Miller received seven, former Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert received seven, and former Royals owner Ewing Kauffman received six. [/quote:3l95ii16]

So the runners-up of note are Danny Murtaugh, John Fetzer, Marvin Miller, Jacob Ruppert and Ewing Kauffman.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

My buddy Will's reaction:

Herzog? The guy who lost the 1985 World Series, the 1987 World Series (to an 85-77 that was worse than its record) and the 1977 ALCS (when he inexplicably pulled Paul Splittorf in the 8th in Game 5)? Sheesh, the Hall will put anyone in -- as long as he didn't play in the last 40 years.

I'm tellin' ya, Miller will go in the year after he dies. Don't want to honor him while he's living.....

[MFS62]

Forget all that other stuff about Herzog. I remember him for going behind the monuments in center field of Yankee Stadium and taking an extra base hit away from Mickey Mantle. It wasn't enough to track and catch the ball, but he had to figure out his route to the ball that included dodging concrete pylons in his path.

Amazing.

Later

PS - The only other guy I remember doing that was Bill Tuttle.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Herzog also helped build some of the best Mets teams as a scout and director of player develpment.

Referencing his time with the Mets, he was always willing to defend the Chillcott pick even thought it was the guy who got the GM job instead of him, Bob Scheffing, who Reggie Jackson fingered as behind passing him over due to racial anxiety.

[batmagadanleadoff]

My favorite Whitey Herzog story occurred almost 38 years ago to the date, when his then employer, the New York Mets, were trying to contact him without much success. Herzog was out in the wilds on some hunting/fishing vacation and was finally located, but not without difficulty. The Mets, it turned out, needed Leroy Stanton's telephone number -- Herzog was the only person who had Stanton's number. When he asked the team what was so important about needing Stanton's number at that moment, the Mets informed Herzog that they had traded the young outfielder to the Angels and wanted to notify Stanton of the trade before the media did. Herzog asked who the Mets were getting in return for Stanton. When he discovered that it was Jim Fregosi, Herzog was disappointed and told the Mets that he wouldn't have traded for Fregosi -- who Herzog described as washed up and overrated even in his prime. Herzog didn't know yet that the Mets also included Nolan Ryan in that trade.

[Frayed Knot]

The Veteran's Committee votes in That SOB Whitey Herzog and Doug "God" Harvey. Nothing for Gil Hodges or Marvin Miller.

[Valadius]

Yes, they rejiggered the Veterans Committee. Now it alternates each year - one year it's players, the next managers, umpires, and officials.

[Valadius]

Well, the HOF announcement is days away. Ballots are leaking out by drips and drabs, but it looks like the best chances for induction this year are for Alomar, Dawson, and Blyleven.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Davidoff's vote* may be the most rational HOF voting slate I've seen this year... or any year. (Is he anyone else's favorite beat guy these days?)

*Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Raines, Trammell, for those not into clicking through.

[MFS62]

Davidoff's vote* may be the most rational HOF voting slate I've seen this year... or any year. (Is he anyone else's favorite beat guy these days?)

*Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Raines, Trammell, for those not into clicking through.

[Frayed Knot]

Too many partial seasons for Larkin IMO for him to get my 'Yes', otherwise I'm pretty much down the line with Davidoff.
Like his explanation about supporters of Jack Morris claiming he "pitched to the score"; It's funny how only pitchers on strong-hitting teams can 'pitch to the score.' while if you're part of a weak-hitting team, then you might find yourself guilty of pitching 'just well enough to lose.' "

just like Vin Scully refuses to use the phrase "sacrafice fly".

OK, I give up, why?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Whoopsied that one.

I think Martinez is borderline for me... I can see whence you're coming, but he's no Harold Baines. I mean, as Davidoff points out, he put up a .420 OBP with power over 14 seasons, and was about half-again-as-good as your average ML hitter... for his entire career.

I have some of the same qualms you do about DHs. But if you're enshrining "closers" for being good at their jobs, then this guy's Mariano for DHs.

[Valadius]

I feel like Edgar Martinez may be an important test case if Ryan Howard keeps putting up similar numbers to what he has been putting up in a necessarily shorter career. I don't think you should discriminate against someone simply because they came up to the majors at age 27 or 28 as opposed to 21 or 22.