Catcher 2010

[nymr83]

So the Mets are expected to provide Buffalo with prospects that don't exist? maybe hold off on making the Santana trade so that a few more fans trickle in to the AAA stadium to watch a Kevin Mulvey start? or push some guy at AA even harder to make the AAA club happy?

[smg58]

The CERA's for the Mets catchers last year:
Schneider -- 4.72 in 437 innings
Santos -- 4.47 in 680 innings
Castro -- 4.49 in 181 innings
Thole -- 4.18 in 127 innings

You have to go back to 2004 to find a year where Schneider had a lower CERA than his primary backup. That's enough time to be meaningful. Thole's numbers probably aren't a big enough sample size to talk of him too favorably, but at least it's encouraging. I suppose Castro left Santos the keys to the doghouse.

I have to agree with the survival mode comment, though. Santana, Maine, Pelfrey, Perez, and Rodriguez all regressed and/or got hurt, with only Feliciano showing a clear improvement from the previous year. I'm sure Warthen would love to see the blame get placed on departed catchers.

[Frayed Knot]

Pudge to the Nats for [u:1xlv08uj]two years[/u:1xlv08uj] (not for a ton of money ... but still) which takes him out of any consideration that he may fill a slot here.
Not that I heard he was a real possibility, but I'm sure someone somewhere has him on the list of supposed Omar man-crushes.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ken Davidoff has some cool stuff on Henry Blanco.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ken-davidoff-s-baseball-insider-1.1278117/why-henry-blanco-can-make-50-000-for-winning-the-nl-mvp-1.1646957?tags=+John+Lackey

Apparently, some shoulder concerns popped up on his physical, so the Mets sought to protect themselves by weaving in clauses that guarantee his money only if he stays away from shoulder trouble. If he gets other injuries, his money is locked in.

In exchange, Blanco was offered bonuses that could continue to escalate his salary, but they are pretty unreachable stuff, including an MVP bonus.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I hope he gets to cash in on that MVP bonus.

[Centerfield]

There continues to be buzz that the Mets are going to make a 1 or 2 year offer to Benjie Molina.

I have never been in the "Omar is an Idiot" camp, but if he offers that fatass significant money (when we are supposedly strapped) I will have to give it some serious thought. His OPS is .727, which means he is older, slower, and worse than Luis Castillo, the guy who's contract we are actively trying to shed.

[Benjamin Grimm]

As I've said before, I think I'd be okay with Molina for 2010, but I don't want him blocking Thole in 2011; hopefully if they sign him he can backup Thole (if Josh is ready) or can be dealt.

But would it be the worst thing if the Mets went with the best combination of Blanco/Coste/Santos/Thole in 2010? They wouldn't be likely to get too much offense out of the catcher slot if they do that, but if they can put that money towards landing Holliday and can get Delgado to sign an incentive-laden contract, maybe they'll have enough offense (with the hopefully healthy return of Beltran and Reyes) that they can cover for a weak-hitting catcher?

I'm not sure how I feel about this, and I'm also not at all clear about what exactly the Mets budget is (who is?) but maybe this is something to think about.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Slow down.

1) Don't believe the Mets are particularly strapped.

2) Shedding Castillo's contract isn't exactly the highest priority. If it was, the Mets would have done it already.

3) Two years ain't four.

4) There's more secondbase talent out there than catching talent.

5) Hasn't happened yet.

6) I really thought you were in the "Omar is an Idiot" camp. I thought you were a counselor at that camp.

[metirish]

Mets strapped?

Not according to Boras......this guy really is something

The Mets have a network and they have an infrastructure there that is a juggernaut economically," Boras said with a smile. "We�ve seen what [Red Sox-owned Network] NESN�s done and they�ve become, if not a multibillion, over a billion-dollar franchise. The YES network is a multibillion dollar network and franchise and the infrastructure that they�ve built with the SNY network follows They got a brand new ballpark, they�re in New York City. Their revenues are in the top three or four in baseball. The New York Mets have a lot of choices and the Wilpon family is very successful. Sure, the Mets can sign any player they want to sign if they so choose to." Look, I�ve had conversations with [GM] Omar [Minaya]," Boras said. "He was very clear that they needed bats. They needed a bat and we continue to talk."

[Centerfield]

Slow down.

1) Don't believe the Mets are particularly strapped.

2) Shedding Castillo's contract isn't exactly the highest priority. If it was, the Mets would have done it already.

3) Two years ain't four.

4) There's more secondbase talent out there than catching talent.

5) Hasn't happened yet.

6) I really thought you were in the "Omar is an Idiot" camp. I thought you were a counselor at that camp.[/quote:179s6d5w]

1. Well, the rumor is that we are strapped. Regardless, there is certainly no extra money to spend. And if they fall short on higher-level talent while doling out $5-6 million to Molina, that is simply idiotic.

2. Shedding Castillo may not be the highest priority (never said it was) but it certainly is something they are trying to do. Therefore, it makes no sense to actively try to sign a player who is older and worse.

3. Four years would be the dumbest move in the history of all things. Two years would only be stupid. But it's still stupid.

4. In fact, there's more talent out there at every other position. Which is why it makes sense to use precious dollars anywhere else to upgrade the lineup and go cheap at catcher. How much better will Molina be than his cheaper counterparts? Not $5 million better.

5. It's very clear that my post is conditional.

6. I don't think Omar is an idiot. He's made dumb moves, but he's made some good moves. I believe he is average. If GM's were graded, he'd be a C student. But if he gives Molina a two year deal for $12 million, I'm thinking he should cut his hair like Pete Rose.

[Guest Edgy DC]

You're throwing everything at this, regardless of the relevance. Almost every big league catcher, for instance, is slower than virtually every big league secondbaseman.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Mets strapped?

Not according to Boras......this guy really is something

The Mets have a network and they have an infrastructure there that is a juggernaut economically," Boras said with a smile. "We�ve seen what [Red Sox-owned Network] NESN�s done and they�ve become, if not a multibillion, over a billion-dollar franchise. The YES network is a multibillion dollar network and franchise and the infrastructure that they�ve built with the SNY network follows They got a brand new ballpark, they�re in New York City. Their revenues are in the top three or four in baseball. The New York Mets have a lot of choices and the Wilpon family is very successful. Sure, the Mets can sign any player they want to sign if they so choose to." Look, I�ve had conversations with [GM] Omar [Minaya]," Boras said. "He was very clear that they needed bats. They needed a bat and we continue to talk."

[Centerfield]

You're throwing everything at this, regardless of the relevance. Almost every big league catcher, for instance, is slower than virtually every big league secondbaseman.

[Centerfield]

Sorry. Avi.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Oh, fuck.

I didn't say it was the thesis. No thanks for insinuating that it was.

So please don't repost for me.

[Centerfield]

Then why bring it up?

Fuck, indeed.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Most importantly, I didn't say it was. Neither did I suggest or imply it.

It's somehow wrong to dispute a point in your post unless it's the thesis of the post?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

LANGUAGE, you fucktards! Gah...

Between it and the FA options out there, I kinda like what I'll refer to as the Dim Sum catcher option (Blanco/Thole/Santos/Coste), if it allows us to roll over catcher budget to shoehorn Delgado and Holliday in there.

Although Zaun-- righty-smacking lefty, takes a walk or two, surprisingly good pitch blocker-- would have been the scallion pancakes. And it's tough to have good Dim Sum without good scallion pancakes.

[Centerfield]

Of course you can bring it up.

But when you say:

"You're throwing everything at this, regardless of the relevance. Almost every big league catcher, for instance, is slower than virtually every big league secondbaseman."

Your implication is that my point is not valid, that I know it's not valid, and that I'm supporting it with irrelevant facts. If you know that the point you brought up is ancillary, then your criticism of my argument style is completely unwarranted.

[Guest Edgy DC]

>> "I see no point in pretending that the thesis of my post was that we should not sign Molina because he is slower than Castillo."

>> "I didn't say it was the thesis."

>> "Then why bring it up?"

>> "It's somehow wrong to dispute a point in your post unless it's the thesis of the post?"

>> "Of course you can bring it up."

Does anybody who enjoys arguing about arguing less than Centerfield want to explain what I'm missing?

[Guest Edgy DC]

More to the point, I'm not looking forward to Molina either. It's a good idea with at least one young catcher coming up to bring his defense into the system, and his defense is a good thing on its own merits also. But High Contact Rate + Tiny Walk Rate + Very Slow Speed + Likelihood of Batting Seventh = High Likelihod of Inning-Ending Double Plays. Lots of 'em.

[Centerfield]

>> "I see no point in pretending that the thesis of my post was that we should not sign Molina because he is slower than Castillo."

>> "I didn't say it was the thesis."

>> "Then why bring it up?"

>> "It's somehow wrong to dispute a point in your post unless it's the thesis of the post?"

>> "Of course you can bring it up."

Does anybody who enjoys arguing about arguing less than Centerfield want to explain what I'm missing?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Seriously, are you out of your mind?

I really have no intention of reading beyond this point. I'm not interested to escalate this into an argument to defend my sanity.

[Centerfield]

It's unbelievable. Do you really think that the point of that post is your sanity?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, in trying to respond, I inadvertantly edited your post except for one line. Very sorry about that.

You likely meant to insult the hell out of me. And its not an insult I'm interested in fielding. Not over Bengie Molina. I don't need it. Do the stakes really need to be that high?

[Centerfield]

This is obviously not about Bengie Molina. When you said I was throwing everything into the mix, you made this about my argument, not about Molina. Go ahead and disagree with me about Molina, I don't care. But don't accuse me of throwing irrelevant shit against the wall unless you're ready to back up such a statement.

And when I refute you by demonstrating my argument was supported by true and relevant facts, do me the courtesy of addressing that, rather than focusing on yet another ancillary, throw-away point.

[Centerfield]

And yes, I meant to insult you. Because I am frustrated. When someone criticizes me and I demonstrate that criticism to be unwarranted, I expect you to address it, acknowledge it, not to turn tail and criticize some other inane point.

I don't know how else to make you understand that. Perhaps a Cliff's Notes version of this thread will help:

CF: Molina sucks

Edgy DC: Your argument sucks.

CF: What are you talking about? My argument is great.

Edgy DC: Look how much CF loves to argue about arguing!

[Guest Edgy DC]

You didn't throw "everything." That was hyperbole and I withdraw it.

CF: Molina sucks Edgy DC: Your argument sucks. CF: What are you talking about? My argument is great. Edgy DC: Look how much CF loves to argue about arguing!

I'm going to beg you to stop with the paraphrasing.

And yes, I meant to insult you.

Well, I don't think I deserve it even if you are fairly charactarizing the escalation, which I don't think you are, at all. When idiot, insane, retard, stupid, and other terms are callously and carelessly thrown around, how do you expect to deal with small points?

And that's what it is --- a small point. While I don't partcularly feel attracted to Molina I don't really think it's relevant that he's slower than Castillo. I didn't think we'd get to such an escalation over such a point.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Guys. Do you have to put on a red light?

[Centerfield]

Oh come on. It's not hyperbole. If I threw in 3 irrelevant points and you called it "everything" that would be hyperbole. At best, at best, I threw in one criticism that, if taken literally, could be justified.

Your point was that I was throwing shit against the wall to make my point, and you know well that such is not the case.

I'll stop the paraphrasing. But take a step back. This argument is not any more ridiculous than that inane exchange I have there.

I don't get your point about "idiot, stupid etc." Are you objecting to me calling Omar these things? Since when is that considered objectionable here? If this is a board where we can't call the general manager a dumbass, this place is way to strict for me then.