You're Hired

[Benjamin Grimm]

It is.

I'd fire both of them, but I think Jerry deserves firing on his own merits, not just because he was Omar's guy.

[MFS62]

Omar's already had 3 whacks at naming a manager, considering Jerry's re-hiring at the end of last season. How many more chances should he get?[/quote:2wrh145l]

Without some recoveries from injury and improvements to the team, Omar naming a new manager would be like General Custer naming a new platoon leader.

Later

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I think that's exactly why it would be fun. (And also one reason why it won't happen.)[/quote:2uql0ueo]

Even more fun: hire Mustachioed Bobby Valentine under an alias.

Or take a page out of the wrestling-storyline playbook, and hire a luchador-masked "man" from Parts Unknown to coach there. Is it Bobby V... or a slimmed-down Davey? A Lost Wilpon cousin? An anthropomorphic pile of money in a baseball uni?

[ashie62]

It is.

I'd fire both of them, but I think Jerry deserves firing on his own merits, not just because he was Omar's guy.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

I do hope that the Mets have reevaluated their earlier position, and that we read of a Jerry Manuel firing early next week. There's really only one reason to keep him: the fact that he's signed, and is owed money, for 2010.[/quote:2g28fql2]

I don't think it's money when it comes to Jerry. There's also the conundrum of allowing Minaya to outlast the second of his own hires so they'd need to get rid of both (and be on the hook for a helluva lotta money) or have to answer for why their willing to see Manual axed but not the guy who constructed the team AND hired the last two fired managers. And, as we know, the specter of how a move will look is often as important to them as how it works.[/quote:2g28fql2]

Problem is, with this organization you never know the extent to which Omar is responsible for decisions we are holding him accountable for.

[Frayed Knot]

I don't know if the Wilpon's are interfering at rates greater than what other owner do (they seem to alternately be criticized both for doing too much and too little).

Does that mean I think Omar has "full autonomy" for baseball decisions? ... to the extent that most GMs do, yes.
Any mgr/dept head in any business is going to have to run decisions by upper mgmt and fit within general rules and budget guidelines. But I don't think Omar would have a managerial hire of his rejected unless Fred & Jeff strenuously objected for some reason and then you wonder if he'd stay under those circumstances.

What I was getting at in the earlier post is that if Omar is whacking and hiring his third manager in a relatively short time essentially saying to his bosses; "don't wory, I'll get it right this time", it reflects at least as badly on him as it does on those he hired in which case the owners would be tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Instead, I think they're willing to write this year off as the mother of all bad-break scenarios with the provision that there'll be no such assumptions made again so the areas where we know the weak links are better be cleaned up and if anything like it happens again it won't be treated as a coincidence and it will be your replacement deciding on the next field manager, not you.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

I don't know if the Wilpon's are interfering at rates greater than what other owner do (they seem to alternately be criticized both for doing too much and too little).

Does that mean I think Omar has "full autonomy" for baseball decisions? ... to the extent that most GMs do, yes.
Any mgr/dept head in any business is going to have to run decisions by upper mgmt and fit within general rules and budget guidelines. But I don't think Omar would have a managerial hire of his rejected unless Fred & Jeff strenuously objected for some reason and then you wonder if he'd stay under those circumstances.[/quote:24klnz1v]


Gee, I don't know. I don't purport to have insider information into the Mets organization, but things the Wilpons have said post-2004 (eg about not eating contracts), Minaya's moves in the FA market this past off-season, and stuff Phillips' has said throughout the course of the season (admittedly through his own agenda) makes me believe they do. But even if they're not interfering directly in the decision making, as you point out they still control Omar's budget. So, say if Omar wanted to whack Willie at the end of 07 to hire Torre, the Wilpons may have barked at the price, that takes Omar off the hook to a degree.

What I was getting at in the earlier post is that if Omar is whacking and hiring his third manager in a relatively short time essentially saying to his bosses; "don't wory' date=' I'll get it right this time", it reflects at least as badly on him as it does on those he hired in which case the owners would be tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Instead, I think they're willing to write this year off as the mother of all bad-break scenarios with the provision that there'll be no such assumptions made again so the areas where we know the weak links are better be cleaned up and if anything like it happens again it won't be treated as a coincidence and it will be your replacement deciding on the next field manager, not you. [/quote:24klnz1v']

Sure, I understood your point. I get the distinct impression the Wilpons judge the magnitude of a mistake in financial terms and not what it means in baseball terms. So his argument to the Wilpons could be something like this; "I admit Jerry was a mistake, but he was an inexpensive mistake", which is something I believe they would be inclined to accept.

FWIW, I think where Omar screwed up was not having chutzpah to whack Willie in 07 and risking a more expensive solution (like Torre) and then rewarding Jerry for his failure. Essentially he's taken the fiscally conservative approach in both instances. Whether that's a result of Wilpons' influence or because it was the decision that involved less risk, is unclear. But in both cases it didn't portend well for the Mets.

[Frayed Knot]

"... but things the Wilpons have said post-2004 (eg about not eating contracts)"

I don't remember specifics about not eating contracts - and they have eaten a few: Marlon Anderson, Julio Franco, Castro, and several mgrs come to mind just in the last year + a half. No real huge contracts there but there haven't been any big ones worth eating recently. Many called for Castillo's to be swallowed last winter (or on a night in May this year) but it's not like there was a sure-fire replacement waiting in the wings and not doing so turned out to be a good move as opposed to a reaction to a bad year (or bad night).
Jerry's contract is for one more year and not for very much money in the grand scheme of things (750K?). I can't see Fred/Jeff laying down the law that Jerry can't be fired on account of the money owed unless Omar's only suggestion for a replacement is giving LaRussa 5 years @ $10-per.



"Minaya's moves in the FA market this past off-season"

Like taking on ~$18mil to fix a bad bullpen while still paying a unusable closer $15mil?
Not spending to fill every fan's wish is not the same as being unreasonably restricted. Every business has a budget and it's tough to argue that they one they use is too low considering it's among the highest each year.



"and stuff Phillips' has said throughout the course of the season (admittedly through his own agenda) makes me believe they do."

IIRC, Phillips comments had to do mostly with the Duquette regime that followed his directly and the "wise old men" they brought in as advisors who clearly had the ability to go over and around the green GM, someone who not only never had the training wheels taken off his GM car but even had it written into his contract that he could be demoted at any time. That clearly WAS them interfering with a rookie they didn't trust but Omar wanted no part of the proposed 'co-GM' set-up at that time and came in without the layers between him and the owners and at least the promise that the baseball decisions would be his.



" But even if they're not interfering directly in the decision making, as you point out they still control Omar's budget."

As does any manager in any business. I don't see what's so unique about this.
If they're saying to Omar 'you can spend this but not that' that's S.O.P. as far as I'm concerned. If they're somehow saying you can spend this amount but we're going to have a say in how/i] you spend it then I'd say they're interfering.
An Omar, for example, who thinks the best moves are adding Manny & Elijah Dukes only to have the Wilpons reject them for pr reasons is not being allowed to improve his team the way he thinks best. But not being allowed to add Teixeira & Sabathia on top of F. Rodriguez and less than a year after adding Santana because it's way more than they have available (or think is wise) to spend then I don't see that as unreasonable restraint.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The way money enters into a potential managerial change is not so much the money they would eat from Jerry's contract, but the money they would presumably pay a bigger-name replacement.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I suppose that could be true, assuming the replacement has to be a bigger name.

My 21-year-old self was very disappointed that the Mets didn't go "big name" for their 1984 manager; instead they just promoted the Tidewater guy. That turned out to be a terrific move.

Maybe Ken Oberkfell is the answer. Or some third base coach from the NL Central. (I have no idea who they are; don't ask me for specifics.) I just want a smart guy. He doesn't have to be a famous guy.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Snooze today says Tueful will manage AA (mainly to assist Reese Havens learn 2B) and Wally will get Class A managing job (not sure which team).

Mookie Wilson and John Stearns also likely to be hired for organizational jobs as the Mets make a show of "honoring their history" in typical Met fashion.

Razor to bench coach, Sandy Jr. to 1B coach, may re-hire Acta for 3B if he doesn't get managing gig elsewhere.

[metirish]

Snooze today says Tueful will manage AA (mainly to assist Reese Havens learn 2B) and Wally will get Class A managing job (not sure which team).

Mookie Wilson and John Stearns also likely to be hired for organizational jobs as the Mets make a show of "honoring their history" in typical Met fashion.

Razor to bench coach, Sandy Jr. to 1B coach, may re-hire Acta for 3B if he doesn't get managing gig elsewhere.[/quote:1ncxxslk]

It's all coming together......GM Jeff knows how to get the fans on board.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Snooze today says Tueful will manage AA (mainly to assist Reese Havens learn 2B)

[MFS62]

Edgy, I still like your line (if not yours, take credit fo it anyhow) that Teuffel and Backman can platoon as coaches.

Later

[ashie62]

Snooze today says Tueful will manage AA (mainly to assist Reese Havens learn 2B) and Wally will get Class A managing job (not sure which team).

The Mets have lierally made a deal with the Devil

Mookie Wilson and John Stearns also likely to be hired for organizational jobs as the Mets make a show of "honoring their history" in typical Met fashion.

Razor to bench coach, Sandy Jr. to 1B coach, may re-hire Acta for 3B if he doesn't get managing gig elsewhere.[/quote:ugywf9zj]

[MFS62]

And somewhere, Camera Carter is sobbing.

Later

[Guest Edgy DC]

Mike Hargrove is campaigning to return to the Indians, but he doesn't appear to be in the mix as the Indians have reportedly narrowed their candidates to a short list that includes Bobby Valentine (boooo!) and Manny Acta.

Don Mattingly is pimping himself for a job, but they're going to have to wait until the Dodgers exit the playoffs. That may be soon.

[metirish]

Has Valentine been on ESPN yet...what's the deal there?

[Frayed Knot]

Has Valentine been on ESPN yet...what's the deal there?[/quote:2m8iv98f]

Yes

[Guest Edgy DC]

So, how about Acta getting the Cleveland job?

More importantly, that leaves Bobby still out there.

[metirish]

For me if you are choosing Acta over Valentine then it's about money.....

[Guest Edgy DC]

And that's probably fine, especially from Cleveland's point of view.

[MFS62]

Astros name Brad Mills new manager.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6688176.html

Who?
Brad Mills.

Later

[Frayed Knot]

Astros name Brad Mills new manager.[/quote:2pkj0j6o]

Nickname: The General?


... as in 'the field general' or General Mills

[Benjamin Grimm]

Can you elaborate on your nickname methodology?

[Frayed Knot]

Yeah, I thought it might be too obscure without an explanation but having to explain it too much means it probably wasn't worth it.

[stevejrogers]

Well, you are no Val big guy!

[Guest themetfairy]

I liked it, FK.

[ashie62]

Enjoy General Mills Breakfast Cereals and fine Wise snacks

[MFS62]

I guess a "stayin' on" belongs in this thread.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/10/28/mets.johnson/index.html?eref=twitter_feed

Later