Ack-cen-chew-ate the positive...

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Not to knock the Fielding Bible but I'd turn to that for guys I don't see everyday. For Murphy I first trust Eyewitness Defense, which tells me he's inexperienced and not likely to make very many good plays out there while always being capable of bad ones, but that he's also not below minimum standards for a guy who hits.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="metirish":1uv5akl1]How did it happen that Murphy got pegged as a poor or average fielder when he got called up. Who decides that? Murphy played 4 games in the Minor leagues and had a fielding % of 1.000 which itself means little but I remember when he first came up and hearing about how he'll have a tough time in LH. Seems like that then is taken as gospel in the media and fans too. Will he ever shake that tag?[/quote:1uv5akl1] Admittedly, it's a bit of an extrapolation, at best... but a reasonable one. He takes odd routes to semi-routine flyballs, seems to have a little trouble tracking flies, and very often running full clip when making routine catches (a flashing red warning sign of making late/poor judgements on balls' flight path). Given his history (At his 'first position,' 3B, DM was an E-machine... and he's put significantly less time in in the outfield) and apparent predisposition (hitting interest>>fielding interest), the visual evidence tends toward damning (if not being entirely conclusive). He's young and athletic, so that'll help make up for any misjudgements... but it won't turn him into Endy. As far as the Fielding Bible numbers... wait a year or three (53 chances does not a representative sample size make). If he puts up good defensive numbers, then I'll be willing to chalk up the aesthetic ugliness as just that. (And hey... I'm just looking for him to be decent/non-embarrassing with a glove on his hand, personally.)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 09:44 AM

="Edgy DC":3aya22fi]The Mets also have a good defensive replacement in Jeremy Reed, and with him in left and Church in right, they can go with a three-centerfielder alignment on occasion.[/quote:3aya22fi] Mike Cameron doesn't think that sounds so swell. batmagadanleadoff Apr 08 2009 09:54 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":18pvw1zl] ="metirish":18pvw1zl]How did it happen that Murphy got pegged as a poor or average fielder when he got called up. Who decides that? Murphy played 4 games in the Minor leagues and had a fielding % of 1.000 which itself means little but I remember when he first came up and hearing about how he'll have a tough time in LH. Seems like that then is taken as gospel in the media and fans too. Will he ever shake that tag?[/quote:18pvw1zl] Admittedly, it's a bit of an extrapolation, at best... but a reasonable one. He takes odd routes to semi-routine flyballs, seems to have a little trouble tracking flies, and very often running full clip when making routine catches (a flashing red warning sign of making late/poor judgements on balls' flight path). Given his history (At his 'first position,' 3B, DM was an E-machine... and he's put significantly less time in in the outfield) and apparent predisposition (hitting interest>>fielding interest), the visual evidence tends toward damning (if not being entirely conclusive). He's young and athletic, so that'll help make up for any misjudgements... but it won't turn him into Endy. As far as the Fielding Bible numbers... wait a year or three (53 chances does not a representative sample size make). If he puts up good defensive numbers, then I'll be willing to chalk up the aesthetic ugliness as just that. (And hey... I'm just looking for him to be decent/non-embarrassing with a glove on his hand, personally.)[/quote:18pvw1zl] And among other things, Murph was the first one to admit that he's a struggling outfielder, defensively, developmentally behind where the team would like him to be. Also, notwithstanding in-game fielding statistics, I suppose that the team can assess Murph's OF defensive skills from observing him during practice sessions. Edgy DC Apr 08 2009 09:58 AM He definitely got better as his season progressed, though. His cahnfidence waxed. Frayed Knot Apr 08 2009 10:21 AM I remember back in '99 when Rob Neyer (citing some fielding stats) pronounced Roger Cedeno to be a "dominant defensive right-fielder" ... and therefore the Hampton swap to be a bad deal. Anyone watching Cedeno that year certainly knew differently and, yeah, Neyer took a bunch of e-mails on that one -- including one from me IIRC. Gwreck Apr 08 2009 11:16 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":21peht0h] ="Edgy DC":21peht0h]The Mets also have a good defensive replacement in Jeremy Reed, and with him in left and Church in right, they can go with a three-centerfielder alignment on occasion.[/quote:21peht0h] Mike Cameron doesn't think that sounds so swell.[/quote:21peht0h] Yabbut that was a once-in-a-million collision. I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Edgy DC Apr 08 2009 11:29 AM Yeah, I don't think LWFS is really arguing against playing centerfielders on the corner when you are blessed with a surfeit of them. metirish Apr 08 2009 11:38 AM I remember in those first games with those three playing the outfield there was if anything a need for Beltran to take charge as all three were capable of running down any ball. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 11:55 AM ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. smg58 Apr 08 2009 12:21 PM You could make a very serious argument that Beltran, Chavez, and Gomez are the three best outfield gloves in baseball right now. OlerudOwned Apr 08 2009 12:25 PM There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. MFS62 Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. Ricjie Ashburn, Gus Bell and Bobby Gene Smith (don't laugh) would have made an excellent defensive outfield in their primes. Unfortunately, the Mets had them past their primes in 1962. Later TransMonk Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 01:09 PM ="TransMonk"]OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. It's the short-term version of the Tampa rebuild (from 2006-2007 to 2008, the most substantive difference in pushing TB to its perch was defensive efficiency-- even more so than pitching, which was already largely in place). LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2009 01:34 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 14 2009 01:53 PM At the risk of becoming the Outfield-Defense dude, I'll direct your attention this-a-way: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090413&content_id=4252146&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym Is this: A) So Wrong Oh, So Very Wrong C) Ill-Timed, Just Mildly Wrong, and Sheffield's Bat Should At Least Partially Mitigate Starting a Defensive Liability in Front of Our Flyball-iest Pitcher After Manuel's Declaring a Re-Emphasis on Defense... and Benching a Guy Who Has Been a Doubles Machine in Order to Do So [EDIT: Young Sam over at Amazin' Avenue is just as dismayed. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/4/14/834442/brace-yourself] OlerudOwned Apr 14 2009 01:52 PM Stupid to do it with a flyball pitcher on the mound. Stupid to do it against a righty. Stupid. TransMonk Apr 14 2009 01:54 PM All of the above. We've already lost as many games to outfield defense blunders than I thought we would all season. I'd leave Church in at least until there is more info on how the new field is going to play. Obviously, Sheff is going to get some starts...but it shouldn't be after an off day with Ollie on the mound. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 14 2009 09:35 PM I'm giving Church a pass on that play. He made a bad one but we know he's capable of making it most nights and there's every reason to think the circumstances weirded the play up for him. And it was only the 6th inning. The failure to win last night was all about being unable to hit stiffs like Duaner Sanchez and other lesser-known, less-talented Mexican League reclamation projects. TransMonk Apr 27 2009 05:17 PM I was sooo wrong. Outfield defense has become a major concern for me. What a fuck-up-fest leftfield has become.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="Edgy DC":3aya22fi]The Mets also have a good defensive replacement in Jeremy Reed, and with him in left and Church in right, they can go with a three-centerfielder alignment on occasion.[/quote:3aya22fi] Mike Cameron doesn't think that sounds so swell.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 08 2009 09:54 AM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":18pvw1zl] ="metirish":18pvw1zl]How did it happen that Murphy got pegged as a poor or average fielder when he got called up. Who decides that? Murphy played 4 games in the Minor leagues and had a fielding % of 1.000 which itself means little but I remember when he first came up and hearing about how he'll have a tough time in LH. Seems like that then is taken as gospel in the media and fans too. Will he ever shake that tag?[/quote:18pvw1zl] Admittedly, it's a bit of an extrapolation, at best... but a reasonable one. He takes odd routes to semi-routine flyballs, seems to have a little trouble tracking flies, and very often running full clip when making routine catches (a flashing red warning sign of making late/poor judgements on balls' flight path). Given his history (At his 'first position,' 3B, DM was an E-machine... and he's put significantly less time in in the outfield) and apparent predisposition (hitting interest>>fielding interest), the visual evidence tends toward damning (if not being entirely conclusive). He's young and athletic, so that'll help make up for any misjudgements... but it won't turn him into Endy. As far as the Fielding Bible numbers... wait a year or three (53 chances does not a representative sample size make). If he puts up good defensive numbers, then I'll be willing to chalk up the aesthetic ugliness as just that. (And hey... I'm just looking for him to be decent/non-embarrassing with a glove on his hand, personally.)[/quote:18pvw1zl] And among other things, Murph was the first one to admit that he's a struggling outfielder, defensively, developmentally behind where the team would like him to be. Also, notwithstanding in-game fielding statistics, I suppose that the team can assess Murph's OF defensive skills from observing him during practice sessions. Edgy DC Apr 08 2009 09:58 AM He definitely got better as his season progressed, though. His cahnfidence waxed. Frayed Knot Apr 08 2009 10:21 AM I remember back in '99 when Rob Neyer (citing some fielding stats) pronounced Roger Cedeno to be a "dominant defensive right-fielder" ... and therefore the Hampton swap to be a bad deal. Anyone watching Cedeno that year certainly knew differently and, yeah, Neyer took a bunch of e-mails on that one -- including one from me IIRC. Gwreck Apr 08 2009 11:16 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":21peht0h] ="Edgy DC":21peht0h]The Mets also have a good defensive replacement in Jeremy Reed, and with him in left and Church in right, they can go with a three-centerfielder alignment on occasion.[/quote:21peht0h] Mike Cameron doesn't think that sounds so swell.[/quote:21peht0h] Yabbut that was a once-in-a-million collision. I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Edgy DC Apr 08 2009 11:29 AM Yeah, I don't think LWFS is really arguing against playing centerfielders on the corner when you are blessed with a surfeit of them. metirish Apr 08 2009 11:38 AM I remember in those first games with those three playing the outfield there was if anything a need for Beltran to take charge as all three were capable of running down any ball. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 11:55 AM ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. smg58 Apr 08 2009 12:21 PM You could make a very serious argument that Beltran, Chavez, and Gomez are the three best outfield gloves in baseball right now. OlerudOwned Apr 08 2009 12:25 PM There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. MFS62 Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. Ricjie Ashburn, Gus Bell and Bobby Gene Smith (don't laugh) would have made an excellent defensive outfield in their primes. Unfortunately, the Mets had them past their primes in 1962. Later TransMonk Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 01:09 PM ="TransMonk"]OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. It's the short-term version of the Tampa rebuild (from 2006-2007 to 2008, the most substantive difference in pushing TB to its perch was defensive efficiency-- even more so than pitching, which was already largely in place). LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2009 01:34 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 14 2009 01:53 PM At the risk of becoming the Outfield-Defense dude, I'll direct your attention this-a-way: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090413&content_id=4252146&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym Is this: A) So Wrong Oh, So Very Wrong C) Ill-Timed, Just Mildly Wrong, and Sheffield's Bat Should At Least Partially Mitigate Starting a Defensive Liability in Front of Our Flyball-iest Pitcher After Manuel's Declaring a Re-Emphasis on Defense... and Benching a Guy Who Has Been a Doubles Machine in Order to Do So [EDIT: Young Sam over at Amazin' Avenue is just as dismayed. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/4/14/834442/brace-yourself] OlerudOwned Apr 14 2009 01:52 PM Stupid to do it with a flyball pitcher on the mound. Stupid to do it against a righty. Stupid. TransMonk Apr 14 2009 01:54 PM All of the above. We've already lost as many games to outfield defense blunders than I thought we would all season. I'd leave Church in at least until there is more info on how the new field is going to play. Obviously, Sheff is going to get some starts...but it shouldn't be after an off day with Ollie on the mound. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 14 2009 09:35 PM I'm giving Church a pass on that play. He made a bad one but we know he's capable of making it most nights and there's every reason to think the circumstances weirded the play up for him. And it was only the 6th inning. The failure to win last night was all about being unable to hit stiffs like Duaner Sanchez and other lesser-known, less-talented Mexican League reclamation projects. TransMonk Apr 27 2009 05:17 PM I was sooo wrong. Outfield defense has become a major concern for me. What a fuck-up-fest leftfield has become.

[batmagadanleadoff]

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":18pvw1zl] ="metirish":18pvw1zl]How did it happen that Murphy got pegged as a poor or average fielder when he got called up. Who decides that? Murphy played 4 games in the Minor leagues and had a fielding % of 1.000 which itself means little but I remember when he first came up and hearing about how he'll have a tough time in LH. Seems like that then is taken as gospel in the media and fans too. Will he ever shake that tag?[/quote:18pvw1zl] Admittedly, it's a bit of an extrapolation, at best... but a reasonable one. He takes odd routes to semi-routine flyballs, seems to have a little trouble tracking flies, and very often running full clip when making routine catches (a flashing red warning sign of making late/poor judgements on balls' flight path). Given his history (At his 'first position,' 3B, DM was an E-machine... and he's put significantly less time in in the outfield) and apparent predisposition (hitting interest>>fielding interest), the visual evidence tends toward damning (if not being entirely conclusive). He's young and athletic, so that'll help make up for any misjudgements... but it won't turn him into Endy. As far as the Fielding Bible numbers... wait a year or three (53 chances does not a representative sample size make). If he puts up good defensive numbers, then I'll be willing to chalk up the aesthetic ugliness as just that. (And hey... I'm just looking for him to be decent/non-embarrassing with a glove on his hand, personally.)[/quote:18pvw1zl] And among other things, Murph was the first one to admit that he's a struggling outfielder, defensively, developmentally behind where the team would like him to be. Also, notwithstanding in-game fielding statistics, I suppose that the team can assess Murph's OF defensive skills from observing him during practice sessions. Edgy DC Apr 08 2009 09:58 AM He definitely got better as his season progressed, though. His cahnfidence waxed. Frayed Knot Apr 08 2009 10:21 AM I remember back in '99 when Rob Neyer (citing some fielding stats) pronounced Roger Cedeno to be a "dominant defensive right-fielder" ... and therefore the Hampton swap to be a bad deal. Anyone watching Cedeno that year certainly knew differently and, yeah, Neyer took a bunch of e-mails on that one -- including one from me IIRC. Gwreck Apr 08 2009 11:16 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":21peht0h] ="Edgy DC":21peht0h]The Mets also have a good defensive replacement in Jeremy Reed, and with him in left and Church in right, they can go with a three-centerfielder alignment on occasion.[/quote:21peht0h] Mike Cameron doesn't think that sounds so swell.[/quote:21peht0h] Yabbut that was a once-in-a-million collision. I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Edgy DC Apr 08 2009 11:29 AM Yeah, I don't think LWFS is really arguing against playing centerfielders on the corner when you are blessed with a surfeit of them. metirish Apr 08 2009 11:38 AM I remember in those first games with those three playing the outfield there was if anything a need for Beltran to take charge as all three were capable of running down any ball. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 11:55 AM ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. smg58 Apr 08 2009 12:21 PM You could make a very serious argument that Beltran, Chavez, and Gomez are the three best outfield gloves in baseball right now. OlerudOwned Apr 08 2009 12:25 PM There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. MFS62 Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. Ricjie Ashburn, Gus Bell and Bobby Gene Smith (don't laugh) would have made an excellent defensive outfield in their primes. Unfortunately, the Mets had them past their primes in 1962. Later TransMonk Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 01:09 PM ="TransMonk"]OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. It's the short-term version of the Tampa rebuild (from 2006-2007 to 2008, the most substantive difference in pushing TB to its perch was defensive efficiency-- even more so than pitching, which was already largely in place). LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2009 01:34 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 14 2009 01:53 PM At the risk of becoming the Outfield-Defense dude, I'll direct your attention this-a-way: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090413&content_id=4252146&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym Is this: A) So Wrong Oh, So Very Wrong C) Ill-Timed, Just Mildly Wrong, and Sheffield's Bat Should At Least Partially Mitigate Starting a Defensive Liability in Front of Our Flyball-iest Pitcher After Manuel's Declaring a Re-Emphasis on Defense... and Benching a Guy Who Has Been a Doubles Machine in Order to Do So [EDIT: Young Sam over at Amazin' Avenue is just as dismayed. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/4/14/834442/brace-yourself] OlerudOwned Apr 14 2009 01:52 PM Stupid to do it with a flyball pitcher on the mound. Stupid to do it against a righty. Stupid. TransMonk Apr 14 2009 01:54 PM All of the above. We've already lost as many games to outfield defense blunders than I thought we would all season. I'd leave Church in at least until there is more info on how the new field is going to play. Obviously, Sheff is going to get some starts...but it shouldn't be after an off day with Ollie on the mound. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 14 2009 09:35 PM I'm giving Church a pass on that play. He made a bad one but we know he's capable of making it most nights and there's every reason to think the circumstances weirded the play up for him. And it was only the 6th inning. The failure to win last night was all about being unable to hit stiffs like Duaner Sanchez and other lesser-known, less-talented Mexican League reclamation projects. TransMonk Apr 27 2009 05:17 PM I was sooo wrong. Outfield defense has become a major concern for me. What a fuck-up-fest leftfield has become.

[Guest Edgy DC]

He definitely got better as his season progressed, though. His cahnfidence waxed.

[Frayed Knot]

I remember back in '99 when Rob Neyer (citing some fielding stats) pronounced Roger Cedeno to be a "dominant defensive right-fielder" ... and therefore the Hampton swap to be a bad deal.

Anyone watching Cedeno that year certainly knew differently and, yeah, Neyer took a bunch of e-mails on that one -- including one from me IIRC.

[Gwreck]

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":21peht0h] ="Edgy DC":21peht0h]The Mets also have a good defensive replacement in Jeremy Reed, and with him in left and Church in right, they can go with a three-centerfielder alignment on occasion.[/quote:21peht0h] Mike Cameron doesn't think that sounds so swell.[/quote:21peht0h] Yabbut that was a once-in-a-million collision. I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Edgy DC Apr 08 2009 11:29 AM Yeah, I don't think LWFS is really arguing against playing centerfielders on the corner when you are blessed with a surfeit of them. metirish Apr 08 2009 11:38 AM I remember in those first games with those three playing the outfield there was if anything a need for Beltran to take charge as all three were capable of running down any ball. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 11:55 AM ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. smg58 Apr 08 2009 12:21 PM You could make a very serious argument that Beltran, Chavez, and Gomez are the three best outfield gloves in baseball right now. OlerudOwned Apr 08 2009 12:25 PM There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. MFS62 Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields. Ricjie Ashburn, Gus Bell and Bobby Gene Smith (don't laugh) would have made an excellent defensive outfield in their primes. Unfortunately, the Mets had them past their primes in 1962. Later TransMonk Apr 08 2009 12:36 PM OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 08 2009 01:09 PM ="TransMonk"]OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense. It's the short-term version of the Tampa rebuild (from 2006-2007 to 2008, the most substantive difference in pushing TB to its perch was defensive efficiency-- even more so than pitching, which was already largely in place). LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2009 01:34 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 14 2009 01:53 PM At the risk of becoming the Outfield-Defense dude, I'll direct your attention this-a-way: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090413&content_id=4252146&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym Is this: A) So Wrong Oh, So Very Wrong C) Ill-Timed, Just Mildly Wrong, and Sheffield's Bat Should At Least Partially Mitigate Starting a Defensive Liability in Front of Our Flyball-iest Pitcher After Manuel's Declaring a Re-Emphasis on Defense... and Benching a Guy Who Has Been a Doubles Machine in Order to Do So [EDIT: Young Sam over at Amazin' Avenue is just as dismayed. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/4/14/834442/brace-yourself] OlerudOwned Apr 14 2009 01:52 PM Stupid to do it with a flyball pitcher on the mound. Stupid to do it against a righty. Stupid. TransMonk Apr 14 2009 01:54 PM All of the above. We've already lost as many games to outfield defense blunders than I thought we would all season. I'd leave Church in at least until there is more info on how the new field is going to play. Obviously, Sheff is going to get some starts...but it shouldn't be after an off day with Ollie on the mound. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 14 2009 09:35 PM I'm giving Church a pass on that play. He made a bad one but we know he's capable of making it most nights and there's every reason to think the circumstances weirded the play up for him. And it was only the 6th inning. The failure to win last night was all about being unable to hit stiffs like Duaner Sanchez and other lesser-known, less-talented Mexican League reclamation projects. TransMonk Apr 27 2009 05:17 PM I was sooo wrong. Outfield defense has become a major concern for me. What a fuck-up-fest leftfield has become.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, I don't think LWFS is really arguing against playing centerfielders on the corner when you are blessed with a surfeit of them.

[metirish]

I remember in those first games with those three playing the outfield there was if anything a need for Beltran to take charge as all three were capable of running down any ball.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch.

Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields.

[smg58]

You could make a very serious argument that Beltran, Chavez, and Gomez are the three best outfield gloves in baseball right now.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess.

[MFS62]

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ]I remember several games in '07 where we had a Gomez-Beltran-Chavez outfield that was treat to watch. Gwreck, that OF-- transitory though it was-- was the ex-girlfriend I'll never quite get over. Endy and Beltran are my 1-2 for all-time Mets defensive OFs... and Gomez was top-10 with a bullet when traded; it ruined me for all other Met defensive outfields.

Ricjie Ashburn, Gus Bell and Bobby Gene Smith (don't laugh) would have made an excellent defensive outfield in their primes. Unfortunately, the Mets had them past their primes in 1962.

Later

[TransMonk]

OO:
There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess.

I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season.

Could have been Verducci...which makes sense.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="TransMonk"]OO: There was actually a recent SI article about fielding metrics that partially focused on the concerted effort which Seattle made to rebuild quickly through improving their defense, and how Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez were very much their main targets in that 3-way trade over the winter because of their fielding prowess. I saw one of the heads on the MLB network say something similar a few days ago when talking about the Mariners outlook this season. Could have been Verducci...which makes sense.

It's the short-term version of the Tampa rebuild (from 2006-2007 to 2008, the most substantive difference in pushing TB to its perch was defensive efficiency-- even more so than pitching, which was already largely in place).

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

At the risk of becoming the Outfield-Defense dude, I'll direct your attention this-a-way:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090413&content_id=4252146&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym

Is this:

A) So Wrong

Oh, So Very Wrong

C) Ill-Timed, Just Mildly Wrong, and Sheffield's Bat Should At Least Partially Mitigate Starting a Defensive Liability in Front of Our Flyball-iest Pitcher After Manuel's Declaring a Re-Emphasis on Defense... and Benching a Guy Who Has Been a Doubles Machine in Order to Do So


[EDIT: Young Sam over at Amazin' Avenue is just as dismayed. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/4/14/834442/brace-yourself]

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Stupid to do it with a flyball pitcher on the mound.
Stupid to do it against a righty.

Stupid.

[TransMonk]

All of the above.

We've already lost as many games to outfield defense blunders than I thought we would all season.

I'd leave Church in at least until there is more info on how the new field is going to play. Obviously, Sheff is going to get some starts...but it shouldn't be after an off day with Ollie on the mound.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm giving Church a pass on that play. He made a bad one but we know he's capable of making it most nights and there's every reason to think the circumstances weirded the play up for him. And it was only the 6th inning.

The failure to win last night was all about being unable to hit stiffs like Duaner Sanchez and other lesser-known, less-talented Mexican League reclamation projects.

[TransMonk]

I was sooo wrong. Outfield defense has become a major concern for me.

What a fuck-up-fest leftfield has become.