NOT our next closer....

[Elster88]

I only take issue when he posts something stupid.

[Guest AG/DC]

I'm not kidding around. I don't know what the facts are. And haven't asserted them. I don't know how anybody can agree with Steve when he's clearly been operating under the fallacy of the part and the whole.

I am concerned with the prevelance of criminal violence in American sports.

I don't know if it's disproportionate the prevelance of criminal violence in American society.

I am more concerned with the case at hand.

I do want to investigate if anything about the culture of sports feeds this.

One item in the culture of sports that I suggest may or may not be a factor is the macho image of the closer.

If nobody else wants to talk about this, that's fine.

If nobody wants to talk about this but Steve, arguing that anecdotal cases discredit the premise outright, than I don't want to talk about it. It's madness.

[Elster88]

I don't know that there's evidence one way or the other, except for anecdotal.

Where are the statistics on the % of ballplayers that are wife-beaters and the % of subgroups like closers? Don't a small percentage of wives/girlfriends actually report it also?

I also would argue that closers are not necessarily bred to have a killer instinct either. Maybe more so than others. Again, it's all anecdotal.

The place to start is the nature vs. nurture argument. Who knows why Brett Myers beats his wife? Maybe his father slapped him and his mother when he was a kid. Maybe he's got a small dick and needs to beat his wife to prove to himself that he's a man. Maybe he's just an asshole. I think all those reasons make more sense than baseball is training him to be aggressive. Same for Burgos.

I do think you are being a little rough on Steve. But I'm not one to talk.

[Guest AG/DC]

Elster88 wrote: I don't know that there's evidence one way or the other, except for anecdotal.

I'm certain otherwise, that there is hard data on the number of domestic violence arrests American society, easily divideable by age, and in professional sports, easily divideable by sport

Elster88 wrote: Where are the statistics on the % of ballplayers that are wife-beaters and the % of subgroups like closers?

I hope to find out.

]Don't a small percentage of wives/girlfriends actually report it also?

It's an issue worth examining. Is there any clear reason to conclude that that's statistically more or less likely to happen with athletes? Maybe. Maybe not. We'd have to work on that.

]I also would argue that closers are not necessarily bred to have a killer instinct either.

I'll disagree.

]Maybe more so than others. Again, it's all anecdotal.

There's tons of data. How about figuring out how many closers have entrance metal songs invoking deathly and damnation themes compared to the general pool of MLB players? I suggest that is telling.

]The place to start is the nature vs. nurture argument. Who knows why Brett Myers beats his wife? Maybe his father slapped him and his mother when he was a kid. Maybe he's got a small dick and needs to beat his wife to prove to himself that he's a man. Maybe he's just an asshole. I think all those reasons make more sense than baseball is training him to be aggressive. Same for Burgos.

But if sports or baseball of bullpens have an increased prevelance, isn't it worth examining? Isn't the first question you would ask, "Do sports or baseball or bullpens tend to draw more assholes or tend to produce more assholes."

]I do think you are being a little rough on Steve. But I'm not one to talk.

Maybe I am. Do you not think that him arguing that Rivera is like a minister is deliberately stirring shit up and deliberately hijacking the thread?

(Heck, isn't he --- to take him at face value, and I'm not --- making more assumptions about the incidence of domestic violence among ministers than I am about closers?)

[Elster88]

AG/DC wrote: ]The place to start is the nature vs. nurture argument. Who knows why Brett Myers beats his wife? Maybe his father slapped him and his mother when he was a kid. Maybe he's got a small dick and needs to beat his wife to prove to himself that he's a man. Maybe he's just an asshole. I think all those reasons make more sense than baseball is training him to be aggressive. Same for Burgos. But if sports or baseball of bullpens have an increased prevelance, isn't it worth examining? Isn't the first question you would ask, "Do sports or baseball or bullpens tend to draw more assholes or tend to produce more assholes."

Pro athletes are an intriguing argument. More testosterone usually means more muscles. More testosterone usually means more aggressiveness.

I think the bullpen doesn't necessarily attract the a certain demographic of personality but one of low-endurance arms. But I have no idea where to look up this info. You believe it's out there, but I haven't seen it as it relates to baseball. If it is there I'll be interested to read it too.

AG/DC wrote: ]I also would argue that closers are not necessarily bred to have a killer instinct either. I'll disagree.

Ok, but neither of us have anything to back it up at the moment.

]There's tons of data. How about figuring out how many closers have entrance metal songs invoking deathly and damnation themes compared to the general pool of MLB players? I suggest that is telling.

I suggest it's not telling. Mariano's music was chosen by the marketing people in the Yankee front office. I know that's only one guy, but with flaws like that in the data I feel you can't even use it.

And does Billy like it because it's a song about death and damnation or because he likes the guitar riff? And when a ballplayer chooses a song for baseball, it may just be one that gets him fired up and not an accruate representation of his personality. I like that song and also like Huey Lewis. But the one I use for entrance music is going to be one that gets me fired up. Again, these are individual examples but are reasons why you can't use the entrance music as an indictator.

[metirish]

soupcan wrote: ="themetfairy"]Idiot Who? Burgos or irish for sponsoring him?

Dying over here....Dude?

[Guest AG/DC]

You don't think much about looking for a correlation of death-, destruction-, and damnation-themed entrance music and domestic assault?

Damn!

I mean, darn!

http://www.armchairgm.com/List_of_baseball_entrance_music

[Elster88]

Ayala's got some silly Mexican guitar thing going on. Now I want nachos and tequila. Thanks Luis.

[metsmarathon]

well, teh fly in the ointment, of course, is that neither rivera nor wagner chose enter sandman to be their entrance music; rather it was assigned to them by their respective teams at the time.

such may be the case elsewhere.

of course, the swatter to my fly is that the entrance music being chosen for them is merely emblematic of the aggressiveness expected, demanded, and required of them, which may then influence that same aggressiveness outside the diamond, particularly in those who may already be on the borderline to begin with...

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Nymr83 wrote: i hope someone beats the shit out of him too.

Burgos is use to it. He generally gets the shit beat out of him when he takes the mound.


Interesting question that Edgy poses, but I don't know where an individual would find any data to support any position they may wish to argue.

[Guest AG/DC]

metsmarathon wrote: of course, the swatter to my fly is that the entrance music being chosen for them is merely emblematic of the aggressiveness expected, demanded, and required of them, which may then influence that same aggressiveness outside the diamond, particularly in those who may already be on the borderline to begin with...

I was actually reaching for that swatter.

[Elster88]

metsmarathon wrote: well, teh fly in the ointment, of course, is that neither rivera nor wagner chose enter sandman to be their entrance music; rather it was assigned to them by their respective teams at the time.

I mentioned that about Mariano, didn't realize the same was true for Billy. Billy chose to bring it to his new team though, so maybe he does like it.

[Guest AG/DC]

[Guest AG/DC]

I'll even go on to wonder out loud if the mental strain and cogntive dissnonance a reliever suffers when (a) he's expected to be perfect, ( he inevitably isn't, and © he's subject to disproporitionate and often abusive public criticism for being human, may tend to make them excellent candidates for domestic violence arrests.

[Guest sharpie]

"Enter Sandman" wasn't assigned to Wagner. It was a suggestion by Jeff Bagwell that Wagner liked.

[MFS62]

I can't wait for the trial.
His defense attorney will probably try to say that quick forward thrusts of his fist are part of his surgery rehab program.

drop him Omar, quickly.

And, Edgy, I've heard the expression "Closer mentality" and maybe what he did is part of what you asked us to discuss.


Later

[metirish]

How will we all feel if this turns out like say Myers and next season Burgos is back in the bullpen getting outs?.

I would be surprised if Minaya just dropped him without letting things play out.

[stevejrogers]

MFS62 wrote: And, Edgy, I've heard the expression "Closer mentality" and maybe what he did is part of what you asked us to discuss.

I always thought Closer Mentality was more about getting back off the canvas after getting knocked down, and sealing the deal. Anyone can get three quick outs, but the term defines getting the outs when there is a messy situation on your hands, whether it is your doing or not.