Out at Home, 2007

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Today's recount in the Snooze mentions that Green's erasure at home plate was already the 7th such event for the Mets this year. That's way too many even given the amount of runs we score, IMO.

Now, gwreck seemed to think we had a lot last year (but I don't recall that being much of an issue at all). If someone can find last year's figures for comparison that would be great but for the time being I was hoping we could reconstruct this year's list of goofs so as to have EZ comparisons with next year's 3B coach (because Alomar will not last at this rate).

Anyway, I can only find 3 so far, but help me out -- we know they happened...

May 1, Marlins @ Mets, Amezaga nails Delgado by a mile, Mets lose 5-2

May 4, Mets @ Dbags, Quenton nails Green (fairly easy), Mets win 5-1

May 15, Cubs @ Mets, Soriano throws out Green (nice throw, close play), Mets lose 10-1.

[Guest Edgy DC]

When we do find these things, we have to look at them as a percentage of overall runs scored.

[MFS62]

Edgy DC wrote: When we do find these things, we have to look at them as a percentage of overall runs scored.

You can also consider it part of runs not scored.
Or outs.
Many here have said in discussions of OBP and bunting that it is very important to avoid outs.

Later

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Noted above.

April 25: Matt Holliday nails Castro with room to spare, Rockies 11, Mets 5

[Benjamin Grimm]

That May 1 Delgado out included some luck on the part of the Marlins. As I remember it, the throw was way off line, but it happened to reach the catcher right at the point where Delgado was, maybe 15 feet from the plate. If Carlos had been half a step quicker the throw would have been behind him and he would have scored easily.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

April 14, Nats @ Mets: Beltran nailed by Austin Kearns (nice throw), Nats 6, Mets 2

[Guest Edgy DC]

The 1962 Mets, through four games, have scored 11 runs, but had no runners thrown out at the plate.

I did find this funny little bit of game data:

PIRATES 6TH: MOORHEAD REPLACED ASHBURN (PITCHING); Hoak singled

to left; Mazeroski lined to second; Friend lined into a double

play (pitcher to second) [Hoak out at first];

per film no

Friend GDP

; 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Pirates 7, Mets 2.

Does this mean the official record has a GDP but the retroboys have gone back and corrected the discrepancy in their own records? And how does the doubleplay happen here. If the runner was on first, wouldn't the pitcher have more easily thrown out Hoak by forcing him at first, rather than tossing to second for a tag?

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

April 4: Chris Duncan throws out Valentin (trying to score from 1st on Duques' double). Mets 4, Cards 1

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

So I got 6 out of 7:

April 4: Chris Duncan throws out Valentin (trying to score from 1st on Duques' double). Mets 4, Cards 1

April 14, Nats @ Mets: Beltran nailed by Austin Kearns (nice throw), Nats 6, Mets 2

April 25: Matt Holliday nails Castro with room to spare, Rockies 11, Mets 5

May 1, Marlins @ Mets, Amezaga nails Delgado by a mile, Mets lose 5-2
--YSG notes Amezega's offline throw actually helped record the out

May 4, Mets @ Dbags, Quenton nails Green (fairly easy), Mets win 5-1

May 15, Cubs @ Mets, Soriano throws out Green (nice throw, close play), Mets lose 10-1

[Gwreck]

I unfortunately can't start in on 2006 yet (too busy during the day today) but have some good ideas of where to start and will look at it tonight when I get home from the game.

For what it's worth -- and I didn't see the replay of last night's -- I don't think there were any bad calls among the 7 outs so far this year. I wonder (and this will undoubtedly be harder to find) if there were any bad calls that went for us...

[metirish]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: So I got 6 out of 7:

Well I checked every box score(except games listed) and did not find another out at the plate.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy DC wrote: Does this mean the official record has a GDP but the retroboys have gone back and corrected the discrepancy in their own records? And how does the doubleplay happen here. If the runner was on first, wouldn't the pitcher have more easily thrown out Hoak by forcing him at first, rather than tossing to second for a tag?

From what Retrosheet told me when I reported a caught-stealing error regarding Ed Kranepool, they are planning on collecting and noting the instances when the official record differs from the box scores.

Just from my own UMDB experience, which is a small but not insignificant sample size, the official stats started getting it right some time in the mid 60's.

[Willets Point]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Just from my own UMDB experience, which is a small but not insignificant sample size, the official stats started getting it right some time in the mid 60's.

Kind of like how MLB overlooked 50 home runs by Hank Aarron.

[Gwreck]

From your CPF research department:

1. The Mets have had 6, not 7 runners thrown out at home from the outfield this year. Daily News was wrong. Dickshot's list is correct, with one typo -- that first out happened on April 3, not April 4 (the other info about that game is correct).

2.
a.The Chris Duncan throw to get Valentin was relayed by David Eckstein.
b.The Matt Holliday throw to nail Castro was relayed by Troy Tulowitzki.

3. The only other outs at the plate this year were
a. on two fielders' choices -- grounders in the infield with the bases loaded (4/6 at ATL, 4/28 at WAS), and
b.the botched/missed squeeze play when Green was caught in a rundown, 4/17 at PHI. Do we attribute any blame to Sandy on that play? Hard to say.

4. In addition to the 6 outs at the plate, there have also been two runners thrown out at third (Reyes 4/17 at PHI, Green 5/3 at ARZ).

[Gwreck]

2006 research, as promised:

We can declare the myth of Manny Acta as a bad third base coach busted. He had a total of 4 runners thrown out home. Why did I believe this myth? Maybe because all 4 happened in a 3 week period.

6/14 at Philly, Milledge thrown out at home by Dellucci (relay by Utley), Mets up 4 at the time, top of the 7th. Was the 3rd out of the inning. Mets won the game.

6/20 vs. CIN, Valentin thrown out at home by Griffey trying to stretch a triple into an inside-the-parker. Up 7 runs at the time. 1st out of the 8th inning. Mets won the game.

6/27 at BOS, Reyes thrown out at home by Manny Ramirez trying to score from second on a single. Was the second out of the 5th inning, Mets down 3 at the time. Lost the game.

7/2 at NYY, Valentin thrown out trying to score from first on a double. Johnny Damon, relayed by Nick Green. Was the 2nd out of the 2nd inning, Mets up 1 at the time, would score 3 more that inning. Mets lost the game -- Soler would implode later on.

[nymr83]

we should note the situation and score at the time the guy was thrown out, not the final score. it will help determine whether each situation was one where it was worth the risk

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Fine work. Let Rubin know!

I thought Acta was the first 3rd base coach in a long time who could go through a season without a few calls for his head.

[Guest iramets]

Nymr83 wrote: we should note the situation and score at the time the guy was thrown out, not the final score. it will help determine whether each situation was one where it was worth the risk

What part of "Mets up 4 at the time, top of the 7th. Was the 3rd out of the inning" etc. escaped your scrutiny?

[Gwreck]

Bump of this for the Delgado-got-nailed by Victorino at the plate on Wednesday, June 6. 6th inning, Mets were up 2-0 at the time, Delgado was 3rd out of the inning. Mets lost game 4-2.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Thanks. Looked and looked, couldn't find this thread anywhere.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

It seems like only yesterday when Mets baserunners were getting gunned out at the plate. Now it seems that too often the only time the Mets get near home plate is when they step into the batters box to hit.

How I long for the good old days when the Mets were getting thrown aout at the plate and still winning most of their games.

[Gwreck]

Friday June 22:
Tom Glavine thrown out at home, Mark Kotsay with Bobby Crosby relay. Going from first on a Reyes "triple."* 3rd out of the inning; Mets up 8-1 at the time.

*Reyes had third easily (regardless of the decision to throw home) but it gets scored officially as a double.

[Gwreck]

Saturday, June 23:
Ricky Ledee thrown out at home by Shannon Stewart, trying to score from second a Carlos Beltran single to left. 0-0 score at the time, 3rd out of the inning.

[Gwreck]

July 31 at Milwaukee

Delgado thrown out again at home, on Shawn Green double, this time Bill Hall with Tony Graffanino relay. 2-1 lead, Delgado the 3rd out of the inning. Top of 6th.