Willie Deserves Better.

[metirish]

I had an old thread about this months ago but I can't find it..must say I agree with Wally and Klapisch on this,maybe not the way they express themselves but the main point is valid.

] What's the deal? Mets spend on everyone but Willie January 24, 2007 Perhaps if Willie Randolph were still a player, and not the manager who led them to within a victory of the World Series, the Mets would show him a little more respect and a lot more money. Over the past month, the Mets have managed to scrape together $10.8 million for three years of Scott Schoeneweis, rustled up another $1.25 million for Jorge Sosa, more than doubled the yearly salary of Endy Chavez, from $800,000 to $1.725 million. And bought a plane ticket to Port St. Lucie for 41-year-old Ruben Sierra. In the month previous, they rewarded Guillermo Mota for his drug suspension with a two-year, $5-million deal, even though he won't start earning his pay until Memorial Day; threw $10 million at Tom Glavine without another serious bidder in the hunt, and found $7.5 million for 40-year-old Moises Alou. And yet they haven't been able to find the time or the money to make a deal with Randolph. At his age, 52, it seems as if Randolph is better suited to play for these Mets than to manage them. As of last night, the two sides were still apart on money and length of contract. How far, neither side will say - both Randolph's agent, Ron Shapiro, and Mets general manager Omar Minaya declined to return calls yesterday - but it is easy to figure out what it would take to make a deal. Clearly, Randolph is not expecting Joe Torre's paycheck or Lou Piniella's or Tony La Russa's. Neither should he be expected to work for less money than the likes of Ned Yost or Clint Hurdle or Eric Wedge. Randolph's $700,000 a year is good money if you are a cop, a fireman, a teacher or a newspaperman, but in baseball it doesn't even buy you a backup shortstop. After being rejected by 12 teams in his quest for a manager's job, the Mets got him on the cheap. Now, they are treating him as if he should just be thankful to have a job. In truth, it is they who should be thankful. Randolph won his division last year, in his second season, and with a little help from the front office, might have taken the Mets at least one step further and maybe all the way. It is easy to quibble, and I have, with individual in-game decisions made by Randolph, such as sending gimpy Cliff Floyd up to try to hit a series-winning three-run homer in the ninth inning of Game 7 of the NLCS rather than have someone else bunt the runners over. But it is impossible to argue the fact that having been forced to work the entire postseason with an injury-ravaged starting rotation, caused by a lack of foresight in the front office, Randolph actually did a remarkable job to get his team as far as he did. And yet, incredible as it may seem, it appears as if the Mets are holding Randolph responsible for the NLCS failure against the Cardinals, as if he could have breathed new life into Glavine's 40-year-old arm, or kept Billy Wagner from blowing the key save in Game 2, or forced Carlos Beltran to lift the bat off his shoulder in Game 7. There can be no other explanation for why this is not getting done. Clearly, Minaya has no problem asking his owners for money to spend on players, no matter how old, and just as clearly, the Wilpons have no problem saying yes. So there must be something else at work here, some lingering doubt about Randolph's capabilities or some festering resentment about the way the season ended and who was to blame. And no matter how it turns out, it is the Mets who are looking bad. Throwing money at aging players while hanging the manager out to dry is the stuff of bullies, the kind of thing the Yankees do, the kind of thing the Mets were supposed to be better than. When they hired Randolph two years ago, it was a popular move for all the right reasons. Randolph is a local guy, a winner, a role model from an area better known for producing rap sheets, and a man of color in a position that is still far too lily-white. Now, they run the risk of sending a good manager and good man into the season as a lame duck, a situation he may not recover from if the Mets should get off to a slow start. Randolph, who has changed the culture of the Mets' clubhouse every bit as much as Mike Piazza did with his arrival nine years ago, deserves better. Now maybe if he offered to play second base ...

] Mets' skipper deserves better Sunday, January 14, 2007 By BOB KLAPISCH RECORD COLUMNIST This was early December, after the gloomy haze of the Mets' playoff loss to the Cardinals had evaporated. The organization was compiling its 2007 to-do list, which included signing Willie Randolph to a multiyear contract extension. One senior executive predicted a new deal would be finalized "very soon" as both parties agreed on a basic premise: Randolph, going into the final year of a three-season, $1.8 million pact, had earned a raise and greater job security after leading the Mets to a National League-best 97 wins. More than a month later, however, no deal is in place and none seems likely anytime soon. Despite the goodwill between Randolph and the Wilpon family, there's been a significant philosophical difference over � what else � money and how to quantify the difficulty of managing in New York. Although everyone is still friendly (and talking to each other), it's possible Randolph will go into the regular season without a safety net. If so, the Mets would be exposing Randolph to a needless summer of questions about his return or, as unlikely as it seems, his departure. Crazy, isn't it, that a team that's been willing to annually overspend for Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran and Billy Wagner is now fighting its manager down to the last dollar. Among the market barometers ownership has used is the $1.75 million Buck Showalter earned last season, despite his 11 years of experience. That's the Mets' way of telling Randolph: Don't expect to be paid like Joe Torre. Randolph, who would only say, "This is a private issue" when reached by telephone Saturday, has a much stronger counterargument. He's working in baseball's toughest market, and while he's obviously not looking for Torre's $6 million per, the Mets have been getting off cheap paying Randolph just $600,000 a year. Put it this way: Randolph inherited the lethargy and indifference Art Howe left behind � or to be more precise, he had to clean up after Fred Wilpon's mistake. Thanks to Howe, the self-loathing Mets had turned into the NL's most expensive joke by 2004 and were desperate not just for better talent, but for leadership as well. Despite his rookie status, Randolph pulled off a small miracle in his clubhouse: He induced major-leaguers, including some of the game's biggest stars, to raise their level of play simply because the manager demanded it. Today, no one in the Mets' clubhouse harpoons Randolph, on or off the record. While the players often mocked Howe behind his back, Randolph has their respect, and it showed in how far they went in October, coming within one pitch of the World Series. Of course, Randolph's Game 7 decisions will forever be dissected. Should he have bunted with runners on first and second in the ninth inning, down, 3-1, instead of sending Cliff Floyd to the plate as a pinch-hitter? Randolph isn't a perfect tactician (Floyd struck out, dooming the rally), but his in-game strategy isn't what's holding up the talks. The Mets simply don't believe Randolph deserves to triple his salary after just two years on the job � even if, as Randolph's representatives correctly point out, he successfully turned around the Mets in those two summers. In any case, it's a profit-less exercise for the Wilpons. If they expect Randolph to keep control of the clubhouse, it's counterintuitive to beat him down over a new deal. It's ownership's money, of course, but it's anyone's guess what lesson the Mets are trying to teach Randolph after he turned them into an NL power broker.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

[metirish]

No thanks,I'm having some coffee instead.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you; I just hate pretty much everything Wally Matthews has to say. He's about as out-of-touch with my perspective as any baseball writer has ever been.

[metirish]

I didn't take offence at all, and yeah Wally is an asshole,IIRC he had less than flattering things to say about Willie after the NLCS, still I would like to see Willie get a deal done before the season.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I don't think there's any such thing as a "lame duck" manager, unless you count those last few games managed by Art Howe after he was fired.

[metirish]

What concerns me more than Willie getting a big pay day is a possible distraction it would be if he went into the season without a new one,and it would be a big distraction I would think...maybe he's bolt to the Bronx after the season...

[Guest KC]

Wally's nothing more than a Mets' fan rabblerouser ... always has been.
Dumb column, I ain't even reading Klapper's.

[Frayed Knot]

This has been a topic all week: Bill Madden on Sunday; Kalpisch & Matthews here; M&MD yesterday, and I think it's mainly because ... well because there's just not that much else to talk about until the substanative articles on the Super Bowl (to the extent that any of them are substanative) start up next Tuesday.

And none of these articles seem to be all that close to knowing any particulars as none are even guessing as to what's being offered by the team or asked for by Willie. It's easy to just say 'Pay the Man' but it's pretty much meaningless if you don't know the details. Maybe it's Willie who's mucking things up by figuring he can cash in for LaRussa/Cox/Piniella type of money off his first two years and is willing to make himself a managerial FA a year from now if he doesn't get his price.

[Guest iramets]

Yeah, and I think it's a taking at cheap shot at anti-Mets writers like [name your least fav columnist here] who sometimes contrive ways to criticize your team. But maybe they're defending your team here by attacking Willie.

Because FK's right: it could well be that Willie's pulling some Yank-me Torre-style headgames with Mets management about "Pay me what I might be worth given a few NL championships NOW or else I walk and make you look like cheapasses" and the Wilpons aren't playing dat shit. You don't know, and I suspect there's a lot of evidence (Yankee background, prideful headgames with Cincy before coming here, general belligerant defensiveness, etc.) that Willie may be the bad guy here.

[Guest KC]

If you're talking to me, ira, I don't think it's a cheap shot at all. The problem
is (and I'm not saying that this is the exact case this time) is that you could
probably go back to October Wally columns and read what a miserable dolt
Willy is and the Mets will never get to the promised land under his command
bbbyyy. There's no accountability anymore. It's one thing for a poster who has
the ears of a couple of hundred internet readers to change like the wind every
other month -- but to me columnists like Wally who work "for a great metro-
politan newspaper" should stick to more "truth and justice"

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Put it this way: Randolph inherited the lethargy and indifference Art Howe left behind � or to be more precise, he had to clean up after Fred Wilpon's mistake.

Klassick Klapisch.

[Guest holychicken]

The fact of the matter is that Willie SHOULD be thankful for the job. Noone else seemed to want to give him a chance and the Mets did.

Seems to me that this quite possibly just a made up controversy because they have nothing better to write about, as usual.

[metirish]

Well if Willie should be thankful for the job then the Mets should be thankful they have him...

[Guest holychicken]

metirish wrote: Well if Willie should be thankful for the job then the Mets should be thankful they have him...

I don't see the connection.

FTR, I don't think Willie is a bad manager. As one (or both) of the articles pointed out, he does have a clubhouse full of stars and works in one of the toughest markets and managed to guide them almost all the way to the WS. So in that respect, he has done a good job.

However, he wasn't able to to prove that he was able to do this until the Wilpons and Omar gave him a shot. So sure, he deserves a raise, however, I also believe that he should be giving a discount to the organization for giving him a shot.

Granted, I have no idea what numbers they are talking about. . . if they are even talking about numbers at all . . . I just think that the immediate assumption that the Wilpons are being cheap and that they should be throwing money at Willie kind of ignores what they did for him.

[Guest iramets]

Also a good GP to follow is to resist buying extra years on a contract just to prevent making someone a lame duck. If the Wilpons think "We never want to get committed to a manager for longer than we think we'll need im," then just don't offer your manager a long-term contract. In this case, WIllie deserves guaranteed money through '07 and maybe '08, but IMO the Mets would be foolish to sign him to big money beyond '08. That's a lot of time there for things to go VERY sour (not just with Willie, but with any manager) --pay the man whats he's worth for as long as you think you'll want him to manage, but if he needs what's he's worth (in annual salary) for two or three times as long as you're comfortable, then you need to let him walk. There's a lot of good managers out there

[Guest 86-Dreamer]

it seems to me that every Wally article I make the mistake of reading contains at least one incorrect fact along with his off-base analysis. Although it is not material to his main point, Wagner did not blow a save in Game 2 of the NLCS:

"or kept Billy Wagner from blowing the key save in Game 2,"

My feelings about Matthew's are the same as JD stated above. I disagree with nearly everything he writes.

[Guest Edgy DC]

86-Dreamer wrote: "or kept Billy Wagner from blowing the key save in Game 2,"

You needn't have cut it off there. It's also untrue that the Mets failure to advance any further really had anything to with the lack of life in Tom Glavine's arm.

[smg58]

I do think Randolph has earned a raise. I don't know any specifics on the negotiations, though, and this is something that didn't need to be resolved yesterday. I'm perfectly willing to assume for the time being that this will be resolved to everybody's satisfaction eventually.

[MFS62]

Daily News says its a done deal.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/491576p-414092c.html

Later

[Guest vtmet]

I don't really know what is the right salary for a manager that is still a relative "newbie" but has been successful in improving his team both years of his leadership...Obviously, he shouldn't be getting Bobby Cox type of money, but from from what I've read today, the Mets are rumored to be offering $900K per season...from the following list, how many of these guys would you rather have managing the Mets over Willie:

]Bruce Bochy, SF $1.75 million Terry Francona, BOS $1.65 million Phil Garner, HOU $1.5 million Mike Hargrove, SEA $1.3 million Ron Gardenhire, MIN $1.25 million Ozzie Guillen, CHW $1.1 million Eric Wedge, CLE $1.025 million Jim Tracy, PIT $1 million Bob Melvin, ARI $875,000

Yet, Willie would be getting paid less than everyone, except Melvin, who he would barely be edging out...(that is, IF, the rumored $900K was what the Mets think he should get)...

[Guest vtmet]

MFS62 wrote: Daily News says its a done deal. http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/491576p-414092c.html Later

Good...Willie's not perfect, but I'm glad that they got it done...not much details, but a very respectable $2M for '09 season...

Ok...now that this is out of the way...what do the NY baseball writers have to write about for the next 3 weeks while waiting for pitchers/catchers to report? I think they are fresh out of topics...

[metirish]

I'll take no credit for this....

[Guest KC]

Pretty funny that while Michael Kay was having an embolism today on the
radio and name dropping about a function he was at last night with the '77
Yankees and how ex-Yankees were telling him about how Willie was getting
the short end of the stick and how Wally hit the nail on the head and ... ok
that's enough of that run-on ... Willie was off signing a contract.

I don't see how anyone can stick up for the stuff that some of these guys pull
just so they have something to write or get some callers.

[Frayed Knot]

So it looks like all that wailing from the columnists was much ado about nothing in the long run. Well, either that or they'll claim that it was their columns the spurred the team to make the deal. Yeah, that's the ticket.


Here is the entire list of manager salaries according to Bill Madden's Sunday column:

Joe Torre, NYY $7.5 million
Lou Piniella, CHC $3.5 million
Bobby Cox, ATL $3 million
Tony La Russa, STL $2.8 million
Mike Scioscia, LAA $2 million
Jim Leyland, DET $2 million
Bruce Bochy, SF $1.75 million
Terry Francona, BOS $1.65 million
Phil Garner, HOU $1.5 million
Mike Hargrove, SEA $1.3 million
Ron Gardenhire, MIN $1.25 million
Ozzie Guillen, CHW $1.1 million
Eric Wedge, CLE $1.025 million
Jim Tracy, PIT $1 million
Bob Melvin, ARI $875,000
Buddy Bell, KC $825,000
Ned Yost, MIL $825,000
Clint Hurdle, COL $800,000
Charlie Manuel, PHI $800,000
Willie Randolph, NYM $700,000
Jerry Narron, CIN $600,000
Grady Little, LAD $600,000
Sammy Perlozzo, BAL $600,000
Ron Washington, TEX $600,000
Joe Maddon, TAM $550,000
John Gibbons, TOR $500,000
Manny Acta, WAS $500,000
Bob Geren, OAK $500,000


Seeing as how this new deal replaces the old one for 2007 it stands to reason that he got a salary bump for this year in addition to the expected bump for the next two seasons. And seeing as how he tops out at $2mil I'd guess he's averaging in the $1.3-$1.5 range over the next three years.
Sounds about right to me.

[metirish]

Wally will probably write how the Mets stiffed Willie....

[Gwreck]

Looking at that chart, one could theoretically argue that Willie might be a little overpaid.

Almost every salary over one million on that chart has either 10+ years experience and/or a World Series Championship. The only exceptions are Gardenhire (playoffs 4 of 5 years), Wedge and Tracy.

[stevejrogers]

metirish wrote: Wally will probably write how the Mets stiffed Willie....

Actually Wally and Michael Kay (who spent his entire first hour on this) will probably be congratulating themselves as the "reason" for the Mets "doing the right thing"

[Guest Edgy DC]

Let's start a campaign to get Gardenhire his payday.

[metirish]

Edgy DC wrote: Let's start a campaign to get Gardenhire his payday.

I'll start a thread later.....