Glavine

[Willets Point]

'Twouldn't be the first time I got coal in my stocking (or an overpaid has-been pitcher clogging the rotation).

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

As if it'd be kept a secret if he had signed.

[Frayed Knot]

Boy, wouldn't that just solve all our pitching woes if true!

[metirish]

A part of me doubts Glavine would leave a boat load of Mets money to go back to the Braves for less,if he does then good for him...

[Willets Point]

Frayed Knot wrote: Boy, wouldn't that just solve all our pitching woes if true!

Well, hopefully it would force Omar to commit to building the rotation without pitchers who were great for the Braves and Yankees in 1998. I actually would have supported signing Glavine, but after signing Orlando Hernandez I can't be in favor of it assuming the Mets want to be serious about contending next season on something more than wishes and faded glory.

Besides, this way the Mets get to bat against Glavine, which should be fun.

[seawolf17]

I would not be against hating Tom Glavine again.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Losing Glavine could make the Mets more open to overspending for Zito, which is why I don't like this.

If Glavine was retained, they could've been more patient, explored trade routes, etc. Now, I think there may be an added sense of urgency. (Or at least there should be. The staff is evaporating).

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Somehow, I'm much less intrigued than Willets over the Mets potential starting rotation next season. If Glavine elects to return to the Braves, we're currently looking at a pretty shaky group that won't scare opponents.

RHP - John Maine
RHP - Orlando Hernandez
LHP - Oliver Perez
RHP - Mike Pelfry
RHP - Brian Bannister/RHP Philip Humber/RHP Alay Soler

Zito and or Schmidt become increasingly more valuable to the Mets. I think that the likelihood they will overpay, in what is already a ridiculous market, for free agent pitching. Or they will likely give up too much in trade for an established starter.

There's still a lot of time left this off season, but this team is starting to look far less formidable than I had hoped.

[metirish]

Schmidt apparently has zero interest in coming to the east coast,read that the Cubs offered him $45 million for 4 years I think..

[Guest iramets]

Did having half your starting rotation self-destruct show you something about the fragility of older pitchers? I'm starting to picture Willets Point as this crewcut blond woman (Susan Powter?) telling us all to "Stop The Insanity!"

I've always wondered how you would literally Stop the Insanity, anyway. It's not as if schizophrenics one day decide, "Okay, that's it, I'm quitting today," is it? Signing more old guys to multiyear, expensive contracts may not literally be insane, but it must stop. Willets Point, you go, girl!

What was Susan Powter anyway? All I remember is she was loud and abrasive--was she a diet guru? Exercise? Yoga? Yogurt? Self-actualization?

[nymr83]

the Mets look stuck though. its a good thing they have some depth or they'd be looking at Jose Lima as serious rotation option, the Mets NEED to get Zito/Schmidt or make a trade for an equivalent guy. I'd like to bring Glavine back for 1 more year but he's not the answer by himself.

[soupcan]

Gammons was on WFAN this afternoon and he said that 'the word out of Atlanta is' that Glavine's preference is to pitch for the Braves but there's a question as to whether or not the Braves can come up with enough money to make it worth his while.

Good riddance I say. I don't understand all the hullabaloo. He's an above average 41 year-old 5 inning pitcher.

Yes it would force the Mets to overpay for Zito but so what?

I look forward to the easy wins against Atlanta next year with Glavine on the mound.

[Frayed Knot]

Am I the only one who noticed that Glavine was our best starter last year?

Now I'm not suggesting giving him a long-term contract at this point, but w/El Duque even older, Pedro already out thru at least July, Perez an untamed maybe, Bannister a virtual unknown, Pelfrey & Humber w/only a few ML innings between them, and Maine a half-year wonder so far (and you wonder if he's got another half) I don't get the view that Glavine departure is some kind of addition by subtraction.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

He's obviously not addition by subtrraction.

I think flirting with the Braves is a ploy to help Glavine get more $$/years from the Mets while reconciling his Atlanta departure by drawing what ought to be an inferior deal. I think the Mets are playing it right -- they haven't extended him out to stuid $$/years (yet) and they're asking him to make up his mind soon because if he doesn;t come along they've got other plans to pursue.

Anyway, this'll all be over soon.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Frayed Knot - "Am I the only one who noticed that Glavine was our best starter last year?"

No.

[Guest cooby]

Count me too. Our present pitching staff is scary. And I don't mean scary good.

[Guest attgig]

iramets wrote: What was Susan Powter anyway? All I remember is she was loud and abrasive--was she a diet guru? Exercise? Yoga? Yogurt? Self-actualization?

huh, apparently, she's back...

and apparently, according to espn, glavine still hasn't gotten offered anything by the braves...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2680548

[Guest Edgy DC]

Am I the only one who noticed Glavine, rather than be the protype for a five-and-fly pitcher, led the team in innings per start?

Pitcher         Starts	IP	IP/Start
Glavine      	32	198.00	6.19
Trachsel	30	164.67	5.49
Martinez	23	132.00	5.74
Hernandez	20	116.67	5.83
Maine        	15	89.00	5.93
Soler         	8	45.00	5.63
Perez        	7	36.67	5.24
Bannister	6	34.00	5.67
Williams	5	28.00	5.60
Pelfrey      	4	21.33	5.33
Zambrano	5	21.33	4.27
Lima         	4	17.33	4.33
Gonzalez	3	14.00	4.67

[Guest iramets]

Slightly misleading chart, in that it's not a descending chart of IP/Start(i.e. Maine ranks second, just a hair behind Glavine, and not fifth, where your chart which is ranked in order of "starts" has him, with 5.93 to Glavine's 6.19). My subjective impression was that Randolph was cutting the veteran starters some slack--i.e. he'd pull Maine or Bannister early, at some confidence-building point, where'd let the vets pitch deeper into the game, given the same results up to that point. Not that it's a terrible strategy, but it's a judgment call on the manager's part as well as a statistical measurement of stamina.

[Guest iramets]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: He's obviously not addition by subtrraction.

Of course he is. The Mets would be subtracting Glavine's salary from their payroll. It's the very definition of subtraction. If they could sign Glavine for cheap, he'd be okay to sign, but they can't. This is a point in Glavine's tenure where they have the option of saying, "No, we're not interested in investing more money in Tom Glavine's future." They should take advantage of it, instead of pretending that Glavine's been a great pitcher, or a great value for the money, for the past four years. He hasn't. He's had good moments and bad ones. He's had strong years and weak ones. So has Oliver Perez, who's cheaper and younger and has a far more promising upside.

It's not as if the Mets have a young underpaid staff so they can afford to take on one big salary. They're already overpaying for Pedro and overpaying for Hernandez. Stop the Insanity already!

I'm not even sure it's insanity as much as it is a lack of confidence in their ability to judge a young pitcher's ability. It's one thing to point to Glavine's (or Pedro's or Hernandez's) lifetime w-l record and use it as a shield if they prove ineffective. "Hey, Tom Glavine's won almost 300 games--who knew he'd be unable to get batters out in 2007? We did the perfect move in signing him to a 50 bazillion dollar contract, except that he suddenly and inexplicably stopped winning games." Whereas if a kid pitcher is ineffective all you can justify your misplaced confidence in him by is your own judgment that has been proven wrong.

I'd have been comfortable going into the 2007 season with a rotation of Maine and Perez and Bannister and Pelfrey and Humber (and a rotation payroll under, what, 2 mil?) with Pedro in reserve. Each of these guys (well, maybe not Pelfrey and Humber so much) have given me reason to think optimistically of them, while the older guys are just disasters waiting to happen. It's just a matter of time until each of them hits the Wall of Suck, and I want to see them SPLAT! in a diffferent uniform.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

According to an AP article on ESPN, Glavine and his agent haven't received an offer from the Braves.

Glavine yet to receive Braves offer; Mets return likely

NEW YORK -- Tom Glavine hasn't received a contract offer from the Atlanta Braves as he nears a decision on where he wants to play next season, a development that has increased the likelihood he will return to the New York Mets.

Glavine's agent, Gregg Clifton, said the two-time Cy Young Award winner has told the Mets he would make a decision by the winter meetings, which start Monday. Glavine said he wanted to spend time with his family before deciding whether to stay with the Mets, who signed him before the 2003 season, or return to the Braves, his team from 1987-2002.

Clifton said he has spoken with Braves general manager John Schuerholz several times about Glavine.

"He can't even evaluate that they really want him if he doesn't have an offer," Clifton said Wednesday. "The bottom line is, we're waiting to see if Atlanta wants to make a proposal to us. We've had really nice dialogue on a few occasions and we've kind of left it: We're open. We're waiting for John to give us a call if he would like to."

Under a preset arrangement, Glavine and the Mets both declined 2007 options this month.

Clifton said Glavine originally thought his decision would be based on whether he wanted to return to the Atlanta area, where his family lives.

"As time has gone on, I think it's actually been the potential pull and the desire to go back to New York and be a Met that has delayed this process and further complicated his decision-making," Clifton said.

Schuerholz never comments on free agents until after Atlanta has a signed agreement with them. The Mets have said repeatedly that they hope Glavine decides to stay.

Clifton and the Mets agreed that they wouldn't start negotiations on a new contract until after Glavine makes a decision that he wants to return to New York.

"They're showing an incredible amount of class," Clifton said, "because at the end of the day they have allowed him to do everything he asked to, which was to go home, to get back into the normal family mode and give him an opportunity to really think this thing through. I think it's working to their advantage, to be honest with you."

Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press

[Guest Edgy DC]

They haven't given anybody money, they pay it.

]Slightly misleading chart, in that it's not a descending chart of IP/Start(i.e. Maine ranks second, just a hair behind Glavine, and not fifth, where your chart which is ranked in order of "starts" has him, with 5.93 to Glavine's 6.19). My subjective impression was that Randolph was cutting the veteran starters some slack--i.e. he'd pull Maine or Bannister early, at some confidence-building point, where'd let the vets pitch deeper into the game, given the same results up to that point. Not that it's a terrible strategy, but it's a judgment call on the manager's part as well as a statistical measurement of stamina.

I don't know why "starts" is in quotes. Were they only so-called starts?

Sorry about the misleading table. I'm not trying to present Glavine as a workhorse, but only trying to defend him against the charge that he particularly forces the Mets to give him short workdays. That's clearly not true. And his lead over the number-two guy on the staff is far greater than any of the gaps between the other players until you get to the other side of the bell curve.

And it's largely irrelevant these days. Teams don't look for complete games any longer. Pitching into the seventh inning --- a feat that only he did on average among Met starters --- is all they ask.

Pitcher         Starts	IP	IP/Start
Glavine      	32	198.00	6.19
Maine        	15	89.00	5.93
Hernandez	20	116.67	5.83
Martinez	23	132.00	5.74
Bannister	6	34.00	5.67
Soler         	8	45.00	5.63
Williams	5	28.00	5.60
Trachsel	30	164.67	5.49
Pelfrey      	4	21.33	5.33
Perez        	7	36.67	5.24
Gonzalez	3	14.00	4.67
Lima         	4	17.33	4.33
Zambrano	5	21.33	4.27

[Willets Point]

Frayed Knot wrote: Am I the only one who noticed that Glavine was our best starter last year? ... I don't get the view that Glavine departure is some kind of addition by subtraction.

Maybe you don't get it because no one has actually stated this as a case of "addition by subtraction" until you mentioned it. As stated above -- and ignored by you in favor of mischaracterizing my position with your typical condescension -- I was in favor of bringing back Glavine to be the veteran presence in next year. The problem is that Omar (foolishly) signed Orlando Hernandez to a two year contract. The Mets cannot afford to compound that mistake by building their rotation around two (or more) aging former star pitchers in decline.

The NL East will not be a cake walk next season. The Phillies were great and you can expect them to get better. The Marlins caught everyone by surprise last season and should continue to be challenging next season. And the Braves faded last season, but I suspect they'll be back in form in the coming year. Hell, even the Nationals while not very good are not an "easy win". In this state of competition the Mets may finish first but could easily finish fourth if they chose to rest on their laurels. Thus Omar needs to aggressively rebuild the rotation through trades, free agent signings, investigating the international market and developing young pitchers from within the system.

Starting out with a rotation lead by Glavine, Hernandez, and a questionably healthy Martinez and hoping that because they used to be great and have shown flashes of their former brilliance in their time as Mets just seems like a cross-your-fingers-and-hope-for-the-best type of plan, and I cannot support that. As you state Glavine was our best starter last season, and if this is the case then that's a sign of trouble. If the Mets retain Glavine it must be in a situation where he is the 4th or 5tht best pitcher in the rotation, not the ace, because Glavine's best is just not good enough for a team that wants to win the division and hopefully a championship.

[soupcan]

Frayed Knot wrote: Am I the only one who noticed that Glavine was our best starter last year? Now I'm not suggesting giving him a long-term contract at this point, but w/El Duque even older, Pedro already out thru at least July, Perez an untamed maybe, Bannister a virtual unknown, Pelfrey & Humber w/only a few ML innings between them, and Maine a half-year wonder so far (and you wonder if he's got another half) I don't get the view that Glavine departure is some kind of addition by subtraction.

Just because he was the best of a mediocre lot doesn't equate him with being an ace.

Besides the fact that the guy just doesn't seem to want to be here. This is hard for me to fathom. We all know the guy is pitching simply to get 300 wins. Don't you think, taking into account that he's rarely going to pitch past the 6th inning anyway, that he'd have a better and easier shot of picking those 11 wins up with a team that basically dominated the division last year with its offense? I do.

[metirish]

At this point I am beyond caring about Glavine,I really don't want a guy back who might be only coming back because the Braves didn't make an offer to him......

[Frayed Knot]

]in favor of mischaracterizing my position

I sincerely apoligize for my misinterpreting the approximate 75 times in the last few months that you've stated (in one form or another) how much Glavine's presence has been a drag on this team and/or your desire to see him pitch anywhere but at Shea next year as an implication that his banishment would be an improvement to the team.
I don't know what I was thinking.

[Guest Edgy DC]

metirish wrote: At this point I am beyond caring about Glavine,I really don't want a guy back who might be only coming back because the Braves didn't make an offer to him......

I don't think that's really the context we should be looking at this.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Besides the fact that the guy just doesn't seem to want to be here.

Why do you say that?

]This is hard for me to fathom.

It's hard for me to conclude.

]We all know the guy is pitching simply to get 300 wins.

And to make a boatload of money.

]Don't you think, taking into account that he's rarely going to pitch past the 6th inning anyway, that he'd have a better and easier shot of picking those 11 wins up with a team that basically dominated the division last year with its offense? I do.

How deeply do we want to look at that accusation of him as a short worker. It's getting strange now.

[Guest cooby]

This wouldn't be nearly such an anxious moment for us if the Mets were giving some clue that they had an ace up their sleeve. Forgive the pun.

[Guest KC]

I don't find Mr. Knot condescending.