'86 yo

[Guest Edgy DC]

[Guest OlerudOwned]

[Guest Edgy DC]

I missed the ceremony. Who was missing?

I've got Davey Johnson, Ray Knight, Roger McDowell, Lee Mazzilli and Dwight Gooden. How about coaches? I assume Vern Hoscheit's not travelling these days, but I read that Bill Robinson was there. Cuh-yule.

Did Tim Corcoran get his moment?

[G-Fafif]

<
I've got Davey Johnson, Ray Knight, Roger McDowell, Lee Mazzilli and Dwight Gooden. How about coaches? I assume Vern Hoscheit's not travelling these days, but I read that Bill Robinson was there. Cuh-yule.

Did Tim Corcoran get his moment?>>

Only '86 postseason roster personnel plus Harrelson, Robinson and Cashen were there. The four players mentioned above and manager were the glaring omissions but too bad no love for the just-passing-throughs, just-coming-ups, just-saying-goodbyes. In other words, no

That said, awesome ceremony to bear witness to. I will cherish it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

You know, maybe '86 is still '86 without Rick Anderson and Kevin Elster and and George Foster and Stanley Jefferson, but they are such an indelible part of the story, and certainly worth celebrating. (Or was Elster there?)

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: You know, maybe '86 is still '86 without Rick Anderson and Kevin Elster and and George Foster and Stanley Jefferson, but they are such an indelible part of the story, and certainly worth celebrating. (Or was Elster there?)

Elster, the Mets Elster, was there (he did play in the 1986 WS)

[seawolf17]

When they introduced Randy Niemann, you could very vaguely hear everyone's collective "he was on the roster?" thought.

[Guest Edgy DC]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Edgy DC"]You know, maybe '86 is still '86 without Rick Anderson and Kevin Elster and and George Foster and Stanley Jefferson, but they are such an indelible part of the story, and certainly worth celebrating. (Or was Elster there?) Elster, the Mets Elster, was there (he did play in the 1986 WS)

Believe me, if I live to 106, and my brain is so addled that I'm wearing flower pots on my head, I'll still remember the difference between affect and effect, that The Cult had the outstanding song of 1985, and that Kevin Elster played in the 1986 World Series.

[Guest Edgy DC]

That video is awful.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

YouTube has a 40 min, 4-part showing of the SNY 1986 Reunion Special.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Very cool - thanks OO!

[Frayed Knot]

At least the fans had enough class not to boo Sisk's introduction.

I was surprised.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I also noticed he was one of the only ones (Mook was another) who had already made his way to the field before his introduction started, cutting into the dramatic setup for him and perhaps protecting him from any confrontation.

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: At least the fans had enough class not to boo Sisk's introduction. I was surprised.

Me too. Doug Risk was the 1986 edition of Mel Rojas, Rich Rodriguez, Jorge Julio, ect, ect, ect...

[Benjamin Grimm]

Sisk's worst year, I think, and the one that cemented his image in the minds of Mets fans, was 1984. I don't think he was nearly as bad in 1986. (I'm going from memory here; the stats may prove me wrong.)

[metirish]

OO thanks for posting the "youtube", I only got to see a little bit last night, boy that was special to watch.

[Guest Edgy DC]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Frayed Knot"]At least the fans had enough class not to boo Sisk's introduction. I was surprised. Me too. Doug Risk was the 1986 edition of Mel Rojas, Rich Rodriguez, Jorge Julio, ect, ect, ect...

Complete disagreement coming out of my bedroom.

[stevejrogers]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Sisk's worst year, I think, and the one that cemented his image in the minds of Mets fans, was 1984. I don't think he was nearly as bad in 1986. (I'm going from memory here; the stats may prove me wrong.)

You are going by memory, 1984 was Sisk's best year with 15 saves amd a 2.09 ERA! 1985 is when the wheels fell off with a 5.30 ERA, and he really wasn't all that effective in 1986 and 1987 either.

I mean, Davey went to two full time starters for long relief and only used Sisk as a mop-up guy in the postseason! That says alot in terms of faith in a guy.

[Guest Edgy DC]

And how did he do in 1986?

[Benjamin Grimm]

No, I was right, it was 1984.

Look at how he did in July, when the Mets were fighting for first place:

http://leaptoad.com/mets/profile.php?PlayerCode=0335&tabno=9&vMonth=ALL&vYear=1984

His 1986 ERA was 3.06. He had good months and bad, but he was used less often in key situations (as you said) so he really wasn't hurting the team at all.

Calling him Mel Rojas isn't fair, at least to the 1986 Sisk. It was the summer of 1984 that gave him his reputation.

And I'm glad he got cheered at Shea last night. I was fearing that he'd be booed, but I guess time heals many wounds.

[Frayed Knot]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Frayed Knot"]At least the fans had enough class not to boo Sisk's introduction. I was surprised. Me too. Doug Risk was the 1986 edition of Mel Rojas, Rich Rodriguez, Jorge Julio, ect, ect, ect...

I'm well aware of what Doug Sisk was but Met fans have got to do a few things here:

1) stop acting as if treating less-than-heroic players like they ran over your pets makes you some sort of discrimnating and knowledgable fan.
That they managed to do this for one night is both encouraging and surprising.

get this idea out of their heads that they've been a fan-base with a history of being tortured by bad bullpens. Just take your brief list for instance:
Rojas was lousy for part of one season and was gone. Rodriguez barely lasted longer than that, and Julio was here barely a month and had about at least as many good outings as bad. Furthermore, NONE of them were the main option out of the pen and only with Rojas was that notion even a possibility.

That fans then go lumping Franco, Benitez, Orosco and now Wagner into their pantheon of relievers who they believe to be worse than dime-a-dozen underachievers whose existance tortures their daily fandom is further proof that some need different hobbies.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I agree, Knot. There's way too much angst in Metland.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: ="SteveJRogers"] ="Frayed Knot"]At least the fans had enough class not to boo Sisk's introduction. I was surprised. Me too. Doug Risk was the 1986 edition of Mel Rojas, Rich Rodriguez, Jorge Julio, ect, ect, ect... Complete disagreement coming out of my bedroom.

I meant in terms of fan perception of the worst reliever to don a Met uni, not in terms of reality

I.e. the Kevin McReynolds/Bobby Bonilla/Bret Saberhagen/Eddie Murray/ect effect, where a perception gets so drummed in that eventually the perception (McReynolds, Bonillia, Sabes, Murray, ect were absolute busts as Mets) becomes the reality (i.e. the notion that Beltran would become a Bonilla-esque bust as a Met)

I'm not suggesting Sisk was good either, as Davey's usage of Sid and Aguliera as the long relievers in the postseason (rather than emergency, in a pinch situation starters-as-postseason-relievers generally are) suggests a lack of confidence in the big spot, I'm just saying Met Nation (if you will) sees Sisk on the level with guys that couldn't even get Al Leiter out!

[stevejrogers]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: No, I was right, it was 1984. Look at how he did in July, when the Mets were fighting for first place: http://leaptoad.com/mets/profile.php?PlayerCode=0335&tabno=9&vMonth=ALL&vYear=1984 His 1986 ERA was 3.06. He had good months and bad, but he was used less often in key situations (as you said) so he really wasn't hurting the team at all. Calling him Mel Rojas isn't fair, at least to the 1986 Sisk. It was the summer of 1984 that gave him his reputation. And I'm glad he got cheered at Shea last night. I was fearing that he'd be booed, but I guess time heals many wounds.

Okay, thats fair.

When did he develop the arm problems? I believe that was the source of the ineffectiveness of 84-85

[Guest Edgy DC]

SteveJRogers wrote: I meant in terms of fan perception of the worst reliever to don a Met uni, not in terms of reality

Please let us know when you're not speaking for yourself.

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: get this idea out of their heads that they've been a fan-base with a history of being tortured by bad bullpens. Just take your brief list for instance: Rojas was lousy for part of one season and was gone. Rodriguez barely lasted longer than that, and Julio was here barely a month and had about at least as many good outings as bad. Furthermore, NONE of them were the main option out of the pen and only with Rojas was that notion even a possibility. That fans then go lumping Franco, Benitez, Orosco and now Wagner into their pantheon of relievers who they believe to be worse than dime-a-dozen underachievers whose existance tortures their daily fandom is further proof that some need different hobbies.

I agree with those sentiments.

I truely do not recall Jesse Orosco being a "choke artist" the way the aforementioned Franco and Benitez had (and still are) and Wagner is getting called? I mean how do you close out the two most important wins of the season and get labeled a bad reliever? If anything Roger McDowell "blew" the 1987 season with the homer to Pendelton (quotes for sarcasm) Heck, I don't think Twins fans were worried that Rick Augliera surrendered a Dave Henderson HR in Game 6 1986 when he was closing out big games for them in 1991!

Anyway, yeah, the bullpen corps of the Mets through the years really have been treated as if it was just a bunch of gas cans and lighter fluids out there

Mediots, and those that call them, chalk it up to "Rivera-Envy" but I don't think so, the Sisk-Orosco-McDowell hate goes back to the Dave Righetti years and no one is putting Rags in Cooperstown. Gossage belongs in the Hall and Sparky wasn't too bad himself, but the Yanks have had their share of clunkers in the pen, both as the Big Guy out there and the other specialists so its not like Met fans really can say that "The other side of town" has had a rich line of bullpen aces, up and down the bullpen

Really is quite funny when you think of it

[Guest Iubitul]

Steve - you don't remember, "Messy Fiasco"?

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

There was a smattering of Boos for Sisk last night (not from me - I behaved!), but it was an overall positive fan response, IMO.

[stevejrogers]

Iubitul wrote: Steve - you don't remember, "Messy Fiasco"?

Heh, true, but then again I was 10 years old in Jesse's last season at Shea, so I'm really basing it on gusty performances in the 1986 postseason rather than the fact that 1987 really was his last season as a "big game" closer

[HahnSolo]

Color me shocked that neither El Sid nor Mitchell clearly won the award for Fattest 86er. Ed Hearn and Doug Sisk are clearly giving them a run for their money.