David Wright for Miguel Cabrera & Dontrelle Willis!

[Guest *62]

Also, IMHO, this thread went from just plain dumb to frighteningly dumb on page three.

But I'm just the new guy, right?

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I pretty much aggree with that. Started dumb, got even dumber. For awhile there the CPF was the worst message board in all of baseball.

Fortunately, it's still early.

[The Big O]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I pretty much aggree with that. Started dumb, got even dumber. For awhile there the CPF was the worst message board in all of baseball. Fortunately, it's still early.

Here's hoping the CPF's quality isn't inversely proportional to the Mets' record.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

*62 wrote: Quick reality check ............ Last 5 World Series Champs Chicago Boston Florida Anaheim Arizona One region sport.

How does the team that won dictate mainstream popularity and coverage?

The New Jersey Devils won 3 Stanley Cups, and New York treats them SLIGHTLY better than the MLS MetroStars/Red Bulls. The WNBA Liberty went to a championship final, and they aren't even worth a mention beyond "In other scores" on the news

Look, I still stand by my point that baseball is considered a joke nationally by fans and media. I went meltdown-ish due to the hour of the morning.

Ratings are down, games are on too late, games take too long. Baseball really is a declining sport, they aren't getting new fans at all. I mean are they playing? Are they watching? Put it this way, more kids and teens know who Tony Hawk is more than they know Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis!

And the more the game continues down this path, the "rich get richer" mentality, hell even if you want to say David Wright would be with the Marlins whenever they decided to start pushing for the title again, you can't say that such a deal would ever be good for the long term health of the sport.

Thats the bottom line. The sport is dying in cities where the NFL draft is a bigger topic than the first week of the season.

More people in Cincy care about Carson Palmer's health right now than they do about Ken Griffey Jr's

In KC, people are more concerned about Herm Edwards right now than what the Royals are doing.

You think Houston is thinking Astros right now? What with the prospects of Reggie Bush all but days away from being theirs?

Hell, people in Miami are probably too concerned about what the hell Ricky Williams is going to end up doing, or costing the Dolphins, to even realize that the Marlins just had another fire sale and Miggy and D-Train are the last ones left!

In Philly they care right now more about life without TO and if McNabb can pull the team together than Jimmy Rollins and his hitting streak.

In Arlignton they care more about how TO and Tuna are going to get along now that their going to be together

In Atlanta they care more about the coming season with Michael Vick than then do about the Braves! They probably don't even realize they are about to play the "First Place Mets"

And all of this on April 15th. The draft is next Friday, and there is alot of spring and summer left untill Kickoff of the 2006 Football season. None of this happens in ANY of those cities when baseball is in hibernation.

Am I'm not even talking about markets without baseball. You think New Mexico, Nebraska, Iowa, Oregon, Kentucky, Virgina, the Carolinas, the Dakotas, Montana, ect even give one flying you know what about the daily goings on in baseball? College Football and College Basketball (among other sports) have taken over baseball in all of those states and markets.

Baseball has been considered a sham and a fraud, since the strike in 1994, and especially now with the steriod mess. And its the "rich get richer" mentailty, the fact that all the small market teams are really just minor leagues for the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs, Cardinals, Angels and Dodgers puts more and more people off of baseball then you can even imagine.

What should happen? Obviously a salary cap, a severe spending limit to stop the Yankees, stop the greed, and stop the "Only a handfull of teams can win in a given year" mentailty that has turned so many people off from the sport since 1994.

Next CBA, shut the game down for a year. Come back with a salary cap. Come back without a TV contract. Thats right. Do be captive to the networks that demand commericals and other crap that push WS games to have first pitch at 9:05 on the East Coast and end some time around 2:00am in the East Coast. THAT would cut the "unmanageable" games down quite a bit.

Its a dying sport, its about time some people started talking about the cold hard facts

Thats the bottom line
Steve J. Rogers

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

="KC"]E: >>>Miggy and Willis walk? Then was it a good trade?<<< I'm considering just giving up the ghost and agreeing with everything Bret says - I'm clearly outmatched, might as join up.

That's nice to hear, KC.

As to Elster's question "What if Miggy and Willis walk?" I'd ask what if anything happens. What if Wright walks? Can you guarantee me he'll be here forever? Since you can't, why should I have to prove that Miggy and Willis won't walk? Think before you post.

You make them a fair offer, based on market value, and you let them go (as you would let Wright go) if they're way off-line, that's what you do, only now you;ve got twice the chances (because you;ve got twice the number of 23 year old superstars) of signing one of them to a LT contract.

Why do you contrive such easily refutable points, with such vehemence and arrogance? Do you think I'm not paying attention? Do you think your fellow CPFers will be impressed if you making arguments with gigantic logical holes in them?

This whole stupid discussion is all about "our Davey Wright, our superstar in training, he's hands-off, no one's trading our little darling for anyone or anything, ever, no way, Jose, hooray, today, I'm gay." As long as that's the guiding principle of running your organization, you don't have much of an organization, do you?

I think the world of Wright, but everyone and everything has a price. It's hard to see through those blue-and-orange glasses while drinking Koolaid and wearing your fuzzy Piazza pajamas and chanting LGM until your throat disintegrates, but it's out there nonetheless. One superstar is not as good as two superstars. Do the math.

[Guest KC]

BS: >>>It's hard to see through those blue-and-orange glasses while drinking Koolaid and wearing your fuzzy Piazza pajamas and chanting LGM until your throat disintegrates<<<

Funny stuff.

Frankly Bret, you're starting to worry me again. You're far to obsessed with
the words typed on this forum and some of the participants. I think it's best
that I abandon any hope that you and I can engage each other in conversation
or that we can reconcile any of our differences so I'm afraid I'm going to just try to
ignore you for a few weeks and see if that helps me and the state of forum.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: Frankly Bret, you're starting to worry me again. You're far to obsessed with the words typed on this forum and some of the participants.

Now you're concerned that I'm obsessed with the words typed on this forum? I'll try looking for the pictograms, or secret doodles.

Does that mean that you think I may have had a point here, and rather than deal with that shocking information, you want to give up and call it concern for my well-being? That's fine. You do whatever you need to do, KC, and call it whatever you need to call it.

[Guest KC]

No, you can call it whatever you want ...

a) I'm tired of being treated like a piece of garbage.
Our common friends are sick and tired of our constant bickering.
c) I have a responsibilty as one of the senior members here not to drag
down the level of conversation and I'm failing at that.
d) I'm tired of being treated like a piece of garbage.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Nice to see my obsenity laden (and the one not so obsenity laden) tirade about this kind of trade leading to the downfall of the sport is completely no-sold

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Non-sarcastic response: I'll really miss our intelligent,stimulating and thoughtful exchanges about baseball.

Sarcastic response: I'll really miss our intelligent, stimulating and thoughtful exchanges about baseball.

A visit with one of jb's colleagues may help you with that self-esteem problem of yours. Just go in and say, "Doc, I really like to dish out abuse and go on irrational rants, but all my friends start treating me poorly whenever I do." They may have some words of advice for you.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

How about Delgado and Wright for Pujols and Rolen?

[Guest KC]

I have no self-esteem issues, on the contrary. As for friends treating me
poorly, you're the only one. We're not breaking any new ground here, you
magnify everything ten times what it should be and dish out ten times more
than you've ever gotten from me. Just let it go for a few weeks, please. I'm
asking nicely, do it for some of the people here you still like.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Note to self, next time agree with Sal so my thread doesn't get hijacked by another KC-Sal hissy fit match

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

David Wright for Baroid!

[Guest KC]

What's gotten into you, btw, Mr. Rogers?

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Nothing just bumping my post total, wondering how a simple rip of a sports radio caller's hypethical trade turned into an obsentiy ladened tirade by me on the downfall of MLB and a yet sniping match between you and Sal

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

]Nothing just bumping my post total

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Like I said, I can't force you to respond to me, so it's completely up to you what you want to do. Typical KC: "I'm going to do XXX and YYY and ZZZ--if you were a decent human being, with regard for your fellow CPFers, you'd allow me to, you big bully."

Like I could make you stop responding, or make you start responding, or make you stop responding after you've announced you'll not respond to me again. Whatever. You'll do what you want to do, and try to spin it like it's my responsibility.

I guess that's another notch on my fusilage--I got Edgy to stop talking his nonsense to me, and now KC. Who's next? I got a nice big signup sheet here.

[Guest KC]

Typical Chubby Checker

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

="Johnny Dickshot"] ]Nothing just bumping my post total

Well if Bret and KC want to ignore my "This trade would be yet another reason for the death of baseball" tirades I might as well do some other things in this thread

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

You're responding again. Or hasn't your hissy fit begun yet?

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Plus I wanted to see McKnightmare rather than Brent Mayne

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Oh please Edgy, WP please retire this thread to the archives before it gets even more wacky!

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

mlbaseballtalk wrote: Plus I wanted to see McKnightmare rather than Brent Mayne

You realize that you're mentally impaired, don't you, Steve J. Rogers? You start the thread by announcing that some moron caller on the radio stupidly suggested a foolish trade for the Mets, and you wonder why someone would be loony enough to think of the crazy idea of trading one good young star in exchange for two young stars. So I point out how it's not only not crazy, it's clearly a good idea.

And now you have the nerve to wander back in here and wonder how this thread got off the rails? It got off the rails when your daddy's scumbag broke.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="mlbaseballtalk"]Plus I wanted to see McKnightmare rather than Brent Mayne You realize that you're mentally impaired, don't you, Steve J. Rogers? You start the thread by announcing that some moron caller on the radio stupidly suggested a foolish trade for the Mets, and you wonder why someone would be loony enough to think of the crazy idea of trading one good young star in exchange for two young stars. So I point out how it's not only not crazy, it's clearly a good idea. And now you have the nerve to wander back in here and wonder how this thread got off the rails? It got off the rails when your daddy's scumbag broke.

It was more the fleecing of the FireSale Marlins that had me concerned for the health of the sport, the fact that it is a trade that would cause even more people to be turned off on the sport set me off

If this was a trade the Marlins would make based on a gluttony of a position (starting pitching or OF/INFers) then yes, lets make the deal, but instead its a "Rich Get Richer AGAIN" deal that makes people hate the sport, hate certain teams that usually DO make the deal (Yankees) and in general think the sport's entire structure needs to be changed

All I'm saying is that no one seemed to react to my "This will bring on baseball's EndTimes" posts but rather continued snipping by board members. In other words THATS what I'm amused at

[metsmarathon]

y'know... this whole trade speculation thread is somewhat interesting, if i take a step beyond all the shenanigans going on within it.

among the primary objections to the trade are:

A) for the good of the game, the trade should not go through, as the weak get weaker and the strong get stronger.
i feel we'd have a better chance of signing "our guy" to a long term deal than someone brought in from the outside.
C) i hate that every time it seems we have another superstar in the wings, we trade him away, and i don't want to see that happen gain, this time.

(i apologize for mischaracterizing or oversimplifying anyone's position.)

i think that each one of those objections is entriely reasonable and legitimate.

the rich getting richer, poor getting poorer is certainly a legit concern, and this trade would only exacerbate such a climate. and depending on how strong you view the game, you may more woefully consider the outcome of this move. surely, the concentration of power in the northeast does not benefit baseball as a whole. and maybe that's more of a macro view than the trade proposition was looking for. granted, i would suggest that it is better for baseball, if only marginally so, for these two players to land in flushing than in the bronx. and so long as teh current framework of baseball exists, wherin power can be concentrated in the northeast, the teams in the northeast should do well to take advantage of it lest their other northeasterly competitors beat them to the punch.

as far as the baility of a team to re-sign a player who grew up with them, well, that's something that could probably be reserached, and conclusions drawn up in response. i would guess that teams are somewhat better able to retain players that gew up through their own farm systems than those who did not, but that it is not nearly so much of an advantage as fans like to think it is. i'm sure it would be possible to chart the probability or resigning a player in his initial free agency foray based on length of ML service with his current team. surely the benefit lies in the fact that the current team would have greater opportunity based upon a period of exclusive rights. but does that benefit exist only for players who are brough up through a given teams farm system, or does it also extend to those players brought in via trade, prior to the ripening of tehir free agency? i'm not sure how much benefit there is, and if it would outweigh the addition of two "stars" in excahnge for one.

the final point is perhaps the most difficult to address. gone are the cal ripkens and tony gwynns of the world, for the most part. teams rarely have the opportunity to develop a superstar, and have him grow up and then old with teh same team.

and fans dearly want it to happen. as a fan, you develop an emotional attachment to players on your team, you become invested in teh players - their potential is your hope for the future. you long to see one of "your guys" grow up into a superstar, and reap benefits for your team. you hate to see him go elsewhere as a hired gun.

you root for your team, and you want to root for your players, too. you want to root for more than just the clothes on their back, and the grass under their feet, and the owner above tehm all in his skybox. you want to root for players. for people. for a kid you want to see mature. not for some hired gun - you root for them, too, when they wear your uniform, tread your grass, and draw your owner's payroll - but you want players of your own.

you want your team to win more games, score more runs, sell more tickets, but at the same time you want to have players to root for.

and sometimes those two desires contradict each other. because you have to get rid of the players you root for, sometimes, to win more games, score more runs, and selll more tickets.

and then you have to choose. do you want to root for the team, or root for the result?

this is not a position entirely unique to Mets fans. it is not some blue-and-orange bespectacled affliction. it is a condition of fans of all teams, save perhaps some of those who've bought into the presumed birthright of the pinstripes. fans of every team want to see their team bring up their playerrs, and have those players blossom on their field in front of their eyes trying to win games for their benefit. your guys are worth more to you than other players because they are "your guys" and it goes beyond wins and losses.

you're an idiot if you think there's something wrong with met fans, and that it is something peculiar only to met fans, for thinking this way, about their guy, particularly about the one of their guys whose star shines brightest, perhaps brighter than any met position player ever before, whose promising future beckons the loudest, who's touted as one of the most promising young stars in the league, who playes the game the right way, who already is emerging as a leader on this team of veterans. Can you blame them for not wanting to jettison him, no matter what the return catch? Met fans would rather win 90 games with David Wright, than 95 games without him, because he is a Met. He's one of ours.

I can't fault them for that. shame on you if you can.

and check your logbooks. this tirade is from someone who would, ultimately, make the trade.

(but not before i made damned sure that every single scout, coach, and trainer on my staff assured me that my concerns over dontrelle's long-term viability are unfounded, cos i'm just not a big believer in the kid, despite his considerable past results...)

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

New sig line!!

You've got to be fucking kidding me with this shit, right? I can't make up shit crazier than this. I simply lack that kind of imagination.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: New sig line!! You've got to be fucking kidding me with this shit, right?

Heh! And I was about to rant about how much the "Guy that stayed with the team" is more of an aborration (sp there) among pro sports. Even among the great ones.

Hell for every Ed Kranepool there is a Buddy Harrelson ending up in Philly, a Babe Ruth wrapping up a Brave! Yogi Berra playing the final games as a Met!

But I think that sums up my thoughts!

[Elster88]

This from the guy who hates Kaz Matsui because it means Joel Cairo (still haven't figured out who Joel Cairo is) and Doug Minky can't be far behind.

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Don't have time right now, but I'd wager that a large percent of Hall of Famers played for multiple teams, and not just one year "You mean he once played for us?" apperances at the beginning or ending.

Mike Piazza: Florida Marlin really is the norm though