Booing Beltran, Split from 4/06 IGT

[Elster88]

3, 4, and 10 are the most likely actual reasons.

[Guest Iubitul]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: 8. I don't like Free Agents. The Mets should have brought up Brian Cole.

They probably would have if he was wearing his seatbelt.

RIP Brian.

[Frayed Knot]

"You'll get a dozen answers to the question "Why are you booing him" if you put it to a dozen fans. Why assume that 11 of them are lying?"

I'm not assuming that all are lying.
But I do recognize 'watch me rationalize my childish behavior by prentending to analyze game strategy' bullshit when I hear it.

[A Boy Named Seo]

]Fans of every team can be assholes though. I don't want hear about how loving Cardinal fans are. Personally I think THEY are morons for treating their athletes like kings just because they wear a St. Louis uniform.

This is crazy. Cheering for the team you like does not equal "treating their athletes like kings".

In most other cities, hell, maybe every other city except Philly, fans generally like the team and the players they go to watch and respond in kind. People in other cities (like LA, where booing is extremely rare) may be viewed as passive and laid-back, but they think that booing Mets fans are fair-weathered, loud-mouthed, jerk-offs. I'm an out-of-towner and I agree.

I thought "Runaway Jury" blew, but I didn't go to the Golden Globes or anything to boo Cusack on the red carpet.

[soupcan]

="A Boy Named Seo"] ]Fans of every team can be assholes though. I don't want hear about how loving Cardinal fans are. Personally I think THEY are morons for treating their athletes like kings just because they wear a St. Louis uniform. This is crazy. Cheering for the team you like does not equal "treating their athletes like kings". In most other cities, hell, maybe every other city except Philly, fans generally like the team and the players they go to watch and respond in kind. People in other cities (like LA, where booing is extremely rare) may be viewed as passive and laid-back, but they think that booing Mets fans are fair-weathered, loud-mouthed, jerk-offs. I'm an out-of-towner and I agree. I thought "Runaway Jury" blew, but I didn't go to the Golden Globes or anything to boo Cusack on the red carpet.

Lot of assumptions being made in this thread. I said they treat them kings. I never equated cheering for them as treating them like kings. I meant that the pro athletes, Cardinals especially, in that town are treated like royalty on the field and off for no other reason then they play for the Cardinals. They are given carte blanche in restaurants and other establishments around town no matter what kind of person they are, reputation they have or least of which - what they do on the field. If Charles Manson had 45 ABs for the Cardinals he wouldn't have even been arrested in St. Louis much less convicted of any crime.

I like that New York and Philly and Boston and other hard-nosed towns demand more from their athletes than just throwing their gloves on the field. I couldn't care less what an L.A. Dodger fan thinks about me. What do they know anyway? They think Major League games are only 7 innings long.

No wonder players think that the St. Looey fans are the best. They don't expect anything so you can't fail them.

And if you did go to the Golden Globes and booed Cusak for making a bad movie that you spent upwards of $20 for (popcorn and soda included) I would've applauded you.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Do you think a Cardinal fan is less disappointed when their team loses or one of their guys slumps? Or do they just not immaturely whine about it as if the player were intentionally trying to ruin Johnny Lunchbucket's afternoon? Being a loudmouth doesn't make a fan more passionate or demanding. It just makes them a loudmouth.

As for making assumptions, I didn't realize you were talking about widely-known perks of the professional athlete in the greater St. Louis metropoliatan area (no assumptions made there). Those impossible-to-get Blues tickets, getting to ride the golf cart instead of walking on the Anheuser Busch tour. I'm admittedly not as familiar with the VIP treatment the St. Louis Cardinals players routinely receive at the various upscale eateries around their town, but I suppose Hector Luna getting the great table at Ruth's Criss is as good a reason for booing as any I've read in this thread.

Boo, Hector Luna! Boo!

[Elster88]

="soupcan"]And if you did go to the Golden Globes and booed Cusak for making a bad movie that you spent upwards of $20 for (popcorn and soda included) I would've applauded you.

It's Cusack's fault the movie sucked? You really would applaud that?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I would boo anyone who applauded you for booing Cusack.

[soupcan]

="A Boy Named Seo"]Do you think a Cardinal fan is less disappointed when their team loses or one of their guys slumps? Or do they just not immaturely whine about it as if the player were intentionally trying to ruin Johnny Lunchbucket's afternoon?

I think that in some small way they are afraid to boo their home team guys. Possibly they are insecure people residing in a fly-over state and they have a small market mentality. Maybe they think that if they boo, then players won't want to come there and then all they'll have is an ugly piece of post-modern stainless steel to identify with. I don't know. It's a theory.

="A Boy Named Seo"]Being a loudmouth doesn't make a fan more passionate or demanding. It just makes them a loudmouth.

Okay.

="A Boy Named Seo"]..but I suppose Hector Luna getting the great table at Ruth's Criss is as good a reason for booing as any I've read in this thread. Boo, Hector Luna! Boo!

I'm with you there!

[Elster88]

Well leave Cusack out of the equation. It's not [random actor]'s fault that somebody blew the $20.

[soupcan]

="Elster88"] ="soupcan"]And if you did go to the Golden Globes and booed Cusak for making a bad movie that you spent upwards of $20 for (popcorn and soda included) I would've applauded you. It's Cusack's fault the movie sucked? You really would applaud that?

I would applaud the effort and the cojones it would take to actually go to the Golden Globes just to boo an actor whose movie stunk.

="Bret Sabermetric"]I would boo anyone who applauded you for booing Cusack.

And I would applaud your booing of my applause of his booing.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

soupcan wrote: And I would applaud your booing of my applause of his booing.

This has potential to get tiresome in a few days.

[Theoldmole]

Then we'll boo it.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Damn, I can't believe I sat and read through this entire thread.

Personally, I would boo a lack of perceived effort by a player. I want them to play well, but I can accept lack of results as long as the player is giving an honest effort (as best I can perceive). If sub-par results persist, then I certainly would expect the team to make changes in playing time (benching, trading, cutting), but I will not boo a player that is giving their best effort.

I was a pretty vocal critic of Rey Ordonez during his time with the Mets. I thought he had no business being a starting shortstop at the major league level. He was a pathetic offensive player and defensively he was more flash than substance in my view. I was happy when the Mets finally freed themselves of him, but I would have never booed him for his lack of overall production.

I have never perceived a lack of effort on the part of Beltran.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I boo boneheaded plays, shit efforts and the other team.

[Theoldmole]

Are the boos still as heavy?

[duan]

"I think that in some small way they are afraid to boo their home team guys. Possibly they are insecure people residing in a fly-over state and they have a small market mentality. Maybe they think that if they boo, then players won't want to come there and then all they'll have is an ugly piece of post-modern stainless steel to identify with. I don't know. It's a theory."

Or maybe they recognise that by having a player friendly atmosphere they've had the opportunity to achieve far above what the Cardinals (going by market size, spending power etc) would be expected to achieve.

In Ireland the word "supporter" is interchangeable with "fan". That's how it should be isn't it?

[soupcan]

duan wrote: Or maybe they recognise that by having a player friendly atmosphere they've had the opportunity to achieve far above what the Cardinals (going by market size, spending power etc) would be expected to achieve.

So now we have to sacrifice our freedom of expression so our teams can be deemed worthy of throwing $100 million dollars at some underachieving jerk?

duan wrote: In Ireland the word "supporter" is interchangeable with "fan". That's how it should be isn't it?

Sure why not? But now that I 'support' the team I can't show dissatisfaction with them?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I boo when a bad song wins the video juke box, when drunk people run on the field, and when stupid Mr. Burns wins the fan drawing.

[Guest KC]

I try not to boo the Mets. I've booed the Jets and Knicks live many times.
I don't really care if someone is booing around me at a game so long as it's
not too obnoxious. We've all seen the guy $50 into Budweisers stand on his
seat and yell at player x who didn't execute something to his fancy only to
be told by someone a couple of rows back to sit down and shut up only to
have the section reminded that he paid for his beers and his tickets and
his parking and been watching for thirty beers, I mean years, only to finally
have him shut up and sit down and if you're lucky pass out.

Boo

[duan]

"So now we have to sacrifice our freedom of expression so our teams can be deemed worthy of throwing $100 million dollars at some underachieving jerk? "

No, you don't, but you'll understand why Albert PujolsJim Edmonds/Scott Rolen/Mark Mulder will sign in St. Louis for less money then they could get on the open market.

[and yes, I know Pujols hasn't been a FA but his 7 year deal was definitely a good one for the cards]

[Elster88]

soupcan wrote: ="duan"]Or maybe they recognise that by having a player friendly atmosphere they've had the opportunity to achieve far above what the Cardinals (going by market size, spending power etc) would be expected to achieve. So now we have to sacrifice our freedom of expression so our teams can be deemed worthy of throwing $100 million dollars at some underachieving jerk?

Freedom of expression? You can't be serious. That's what you're resorting to now?

[soupcan]

Saying 'Freedom of Expression' kind of gives it a weight that I don't intend, but yeah, if my freedom to express myself (to 'BOO!') must be supressed - by me - in the interest of allowing the team I am a fan of (and a supporter of) to sign a player that otherwise wouldn't sign with my team if I did 'Boo!' - then yeah. that's what I'm resorting to.

Again I don't see why these athletes should be treated with kid gloves. They make a LOT of money and part of the reason they do is because their work environment is often times a very uncomfortable place. They are paid to produce no matter the atmosphere. And they know it and they accept it..

Maybe I'm a jerk, maybe I shouldn't boo a hometown guy, but no matter what I should be allowed to, it should be accepted and the player I'm booing should be able to deal with it and produce in spite of it.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Should be able to, yes. But what if he can't? Doesn't it then become counterproductive to your interests in having a successful player on a successful team?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Screw the rich! Their dogs, too!

[Theoldmole]

Is that screwing the pooch?

[soupcan]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Should be able to, yes. But what if he can't? Doesn't it then become counterproductive to your interests in having a successful player on a successful team?

I guess it is counterproductive, yes.

="Edgy DC"]Screw the rich! Their dogs, too!

I don't have issue with them making the money.I have issue with them having a sense of entitlement once they've taken money. The people in the stands are the reason they are making those sums. If they want to boo these guys, these guys should deal with it. The players are going to have the last laugh anyway.


I don't have a problem with their dogs.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't make much. I think I'm entitled to not to have nasty crap screamed at me, also. Not because of what I make, simply taste, decency, and the social contract. I think everybody feels they're entitled to that. I think the people who believe they can buy their way into a new level of entitlement are fans reasoning that they bought a ticket, they're entitled to satisfying results and to abuse those who aren't able to produce them.

Even people booing the other team is often just a pantomime, rarely vile in the way of a fans turning on a struglling home-team player. And if they do turn it up --- racial abuse or villification along the order of John Rocker returning to Shea, I'm really embarrassed.

Nonetheless, they do deal with it. I'm not sure how it is you're arguing that they don't.

[soupcan]

="Edgy DC"]I don't make much. I think I'm entitled to not to have nasty crap screamed at me, also. Not because of what I make, simply taste, decency, and the social contract. I think everybody feels they're entitled to that. I think the people who believe they can buy their way into a new level of entitlement are fans reasoning that they bought a ticket, they're entitled to satisfying results and to abuse those who aren't able to produce them. Even people booing the other team is often just a pantomime, rarely vile in the way of a fans turning on a struglling home-team player. And if they do turn it up --- racial abuse or villification along the order of John Rocker returning to Shea, I'm really embarrassed.

I agree that you shouldn't have nasty crap screamed at you. For many reasons, not the least of which being the fact that you are not (as far as I know) a professional athlete.

I do not walk down the street yelling nasty crap at John Q. Public. As a matter of fact, as I have stated several times in this thread, I don't yell nasty crap at anyone. When I'm at the ballpark and I choose to boo, that is exactly what I do - "BOOOOOOO!". Why do you all have such difficulty believing that? I'm really not a bad guy. I don't spit in the subway, I never litter. I say hello, please and thank to pretty much everyone I come in contact with if the moment suits it.

Again - I do not agree with your use of the word 'abuse'. Especially in the context which we are discussing. Booing an athlete at a sporting event is not abuse. Screaming nasty crap, throwing things, accosting someone - THAT is abuse. Now I thought I had been defending myself booing throughout this thread but if I have to defend people that scream profanities and throw things at players, well I can't, won't and have no reason to. I'm just as appaled at those actions as any of you. I simply boo.

="Edgy DC"]Nonetheless, they do deal with it. I'm not sure how it is you're arguing that they don't

I argue that they don't because Beltran obviously is taking issue with it. Dealing with it to me means accepting the fact that he did not produce what he was paid to produce last season, fans are perturbed, they are showing their pertubedness. He may not like it but he certainly should understand it. His statements and actions early last week showed that he was pissed off he was being booed. Like he did nothing at all to deserve it. He didn't do what he took money to do and he's mad he's being called on it - Booo!

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, I accept your distinction of booing home players from fouler verbal abuse beyond that. But it's a distinction of degree, and when home players get booed over a period of time, it generally escalates from one to the other. That doesn't make one equal the other, though

I don't accept the logic that saying "They could do better" is not dealing with it. He tries hard (you certainly can dispute this) and gets ripped by thousands, but he's allegedly not "dealing" because he says "They can do better." The fans don't try to contextualize his results or sympathize, but boo him by the third at-bat of the season when what the team they're paying to see needs is redoubled support. That's not dealing.

We're also getting again into the logic where what makes him so disgustingly boo-able is that he responded to the booing. (When interviewed about it.)

]I don't have issue with them making the money.I have issue with them having a sense of entitlement once they've taken money.

]He didn't do what he took money to do and he's mad he's being called on it - Booo!

We're just going in a circle.