Soriano refuses to play outfield for Nationals

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

You would think so, wouldn't you?

[seawolf17]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Good.

Yeah. No way would I have wanted a bat like that in our lineup.

[Elster88]

Yeah me too. I'm much more comfortable with Anderson Hernandez as our starting second baseman.

Who wants a guy who's hit over 30 (was it 40?) home runs in a season when you can have a guy who's hit over .300 in AAA?

What the hell is wrong with you people?!?!?

[Guest Edgy DC]

You're making a lot of one word ("Good") here, aren't youse?

[Elster88]

Maybe.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Vic Sage wrote: As Soriano is a FA after this season, acquiring him is a "win now" move. But if you're giving up Floyd and Glavine to get him, you haven't really strengthened the team overall. Offensively, floyd is actually BETTER than Soriano, plus we're giving up our #2 SPer.

Our #2 pitcher may turn out to be a very expensive pile of #2. There's a chance that Bannister may turn out to have a better year than Glavine, and more sizable chance that the edge Glavine will have is fairly small--a chance worth taking.

Floyd may be better than Soriano (and both of them are FA after this year, the difference being that maybe I'd want to re-sign Soriano, but I defintely don't want to re-sign Floyd*), BUT the combo of Floyd and Matsui vs. the combo of increased ABs for Milledge, Diaz and Nady and Soriano is far worse. There's an offensive edge there, plus the Mets have dealt with a small bottleneck at corner outfield and a talent vacuum at 2B and, IMO, improved the team.

*(OE) and so is Glavine, so I don't get the win-now comment. Matsui, Glavine, Floyd and Soriano are all FA after this year. Your point being...? I also would gladly give Washington their choice of Glavine, Zambrano, or a plate of soup.

[seawolf17]

Floyd is not better than Soriano; not offensively. I agree with Bret (!!!).

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

seawolf17 wrote: Floyd is not better than Soriano; not offensively. I agree with Bret (!!!).

You're high.

Career OPS+ Floyd 122; Soriano 111

Best year: Soriano 131; Floyd 152

Last year: Floyd 125; Soriano 111

VORP is a slight edge for Soriano due to the scarcity of offense at 2B 47.8-46.3, but as three teams have already acknowledged, Soriano is better suited to be an OF than a 2B, so placing him in LF would reduce his value to below that of Floyd, apples to apples.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Just for the record, even I don't agree with Bret.

The combination of Floyd in LF and Matsui at 2B (with Diaz/Nady in RF) is weaker as I said above than the combo of Milledge, Diaz and Nady in LF and RF and Soriano at 2B.

[Guest silverdsl]

="Frayed Knot"]The last paragraph in the espn piece was the key: General manager Jim Bowden had threatened to put Soriano on the disqualified list, which would prevent him from playing, accruing service time and receiving his $10 million salary. So not only would he not have been getting this year's money as long as he refused, but no service time accrual means he would have pushed his FA-gency back one season and therefore missed out on the big money next year. Principle only goes so far when there's millions of buckos on the line.

Wow! I completely missed that Soriano would not have accrued service time if he was on the DQ list. That is huge and I would guess once he was informed of that his mind was changed very quickly about playing the OF.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

That's a pretty complicated way of saying Soriano is better than Matsui.

You can always add Millege to the mix, particularly if you can, for example, trade one of Nady or Diaz for that starting pitcher you might need.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

On the road last season, Soriano hit .224 (.639 OPS) with 11 HRs and 31 RBI.

He's no improvement (maybe worse!) than Matsui on defense.

I think JDs "Good." fits perfectly.

[Vic Sage]

]*(OE) and so is Glavine, so I don't get the win-now comment. Matsui, Glavine, Floyd and Soriano are all FA after this year. Your point being...? I also would gladly give Washington their choice of Glavine, Zambrano, or a plate of soup.

the "win now" comment is about creating two holes in this year's team, by giving up our #2 starter and middle-of-the-order LFer, to fill one hole. I don't think that really helps us overall.

I understand that YOU do because you totally dismiss Glavine's performance last year and project him as being exchangable for a bowl of soup, and therefore Bannister, a guy who has not been a dominant minor-league pitcher (never mind never having gotten out a major-league hitter in a game that counts) is so CLEARLY poised to be a suitable replacement, if not an actual UPGRADE, for Glavine in the rotation, based on 14 pre-season innings.

And because you think the similarly untested Milledge, and the mediocre Diaz and Nady, will be upgrades over Floyd (whose been the Mets best overall player for a few years, until Wright passed him last season) and whoever will be replacing Matsui at 2b.

Clearly i don't agree with your assumptions, and clearly you think i'm shooting smack into my eyeballs.

Does that clarify it for you?

[seawolf17]

I'll say the same thing I said this time last year -- and admittedly, I was wrong last year -- I'm not 100% sold on relying on Floyd to play 150 games and hit 30 home runs this year. Maybe his health woes are behind him; but I'd much rather have a 30-year-old who's going 30-100 in 150 games every year for the last four years than a 34-year-old who's going 24-75 in 120 games over the past four years and has an ugly injury history.

[Elster88]

]shooting smack into my eyeballs.

Ouch.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

seawolf17 wrote: I'll say the same thing I said this time last year -- and admittedly, I was wrong last year -- I'm not 100% sold on relying on Floyd to play 150 games and hit 30 home runs this year. Maybe his health woes are behind him; but I'd much rather have a 30-year-old who's going 30-100 in 150 games every year for the last four years than a 34-year-old who's going 24-75 in 120 games over the past four years and has an ugly injury history.

Still, I don't swap out the better hitter for the worse one on the chance that the former may get hurt -- especially when the latter is unhappy, worse because he makes more outs than almost anyone in the league, makes $3 million more, and is committed only thru the same time frame. If Floyd were already hurt that'd be one thing... but till then, I play it safe and hope instead that if something like that does happen, that Millege or Diaz has enough upside to approach Soriano levels.

Only when that fails do I go pursue a jagoff like Soriano.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

seawolf17 wrote: I'd much rather have a 30-year-old who's going 30-100 in 150 games every year for the last four years than a 34-year-old who's going 24-75 in 120 games over the past four years and has an ugly injury history.

That's part of my qualm about keeping Floyd--I have no faith in his ability to stay healthy.

Yes, Vic, I do think that Milledge is MLB-ready. I'd like to see him in RF asap. And Nady/Diaz's numbers last year (606 ABs, 25 HRs 81 RBI)that are comparable to Floyd's typical season. They're only getting better, and Floyd's likely to decline from his 34 HR, 98 RBI year.

This is a team that needs to get seriously better than they are right now to win their division, about 5 games better. You don't get five games better with outfielders in their mid-30s and pitchers in their early 40s. You hope you can get another decent season out of such guys, but they ain't making the great leap forward for you--guys like Diaz and Bannister do that. If you're reluctant to try unproven commodities, you get what your timidity deserves.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: And Nady/Diaz's numbers last year (606 ABs, 25 HRs 81 RBI)that are comparable to Floyd's typical season.

I may be way off on this, but doesn't Cornelius usually get to those numbers in a lot fewer at-bats?

[Guest Rotblatt]

OlerudOwned wrote: On the road last season, Soriano hit .224 (.639 OPS) with 11 HRs and 31 RBI. He's no improvement (maybe worse!) than Matsui on defense. I think JDs "Good." fits perfectly.

Just to expand on Olerud's point: Soriano's OBP away from Arlington the last two years is .273.

Batting at Shea, he'd likely make Jose look like Rickey, and Matsui look average.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"]And Nady/Diaz's numbers last year (606 ABs, 25 HRs 81 RBI)that are comparable to Floyd's typical season. I may be way off on this, but doesn't Cornelius usually get to those numbers in a lot fewer at-bats?

I wouldn't say a lot fewer. Cliffs only gotten over 500 ABs four times in his career, in those years he's averaged 553 ABs, 29 HRs and 95 RBIs. But an average Floyd season to date is 102 games, 340 ABs, 15 HRs and 65 RBIs, roughly, or about what Nady did last year in ABs and HRs (Nady only drove in 43.)

[nymr83]

But those number are (obviously) more valuable coming over 100 games than over 150. unless you think the 50-game replacement will hit .000.

I think Floyd is CLEARLY a better hitter than Soriano, as shown by any park-adjusted stats you look at. Soriano is gonna stink in RFK this year and he'd stink at Shea too. Would i take him in exchange for someone i didnt see as a meaningful part of this team's present or future? (say from the group of Nady, Zambrano, and prospects not named Milledge/Pelfrey.) Sure i would. But i'm not paying even .50 on the dollar for a guy with his horrible defense, questionable hitting (he cant get on base and his power is going to evaporate outside of Texas) and horendous attitude towards the concept of "team."

]Batting at Shea, he'd likely make Jose look like Rickey, and Matsui look average.

Fortunately (for those of us who like pitchers' duals and/or dislike Soriano) RFK Stadium is a huge pitcher park as well, possibly more so than Shea, so we'll get to see Soriano stink firsthand at a safe distance and within our division

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

If Soriano continues to refuse to play the outfield, then Selig should allow the Nationals to place him on the disqualified list. If he won't honor his contract by playing where and when the manager tells him to, then the team should not have to pay his selfish ass. A little time cooling his heels and forfeiting his $10 Mil. salary should help to motivate Soriano to honor his contract.

[Frayed Knot]

It already has ... Soriano took his place in LF during today's ST game.

As mentioned before, continuing to refuse the assignment would have resulted in the suspension of his salary plus a forfeiting of his FA rights for at least a year.
I'm sure his agent and/or the Player's Assoc took a page out of the 'Cool Hand Luke' playbook and told him; 'we've got to get your mind right'

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

You know that I've been reading this thread and mentally substituting "Piazza" for "Soriano" and laughing myself sick at all the hypocrisy, don't you?

[Guest Rotblatt]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: You know that I've been reading this thread and mentally substituting "Piazza" for "Soriano" and laughing myself sick at all the hypocrisy, don't you?

Oh, yeah, it's exactly the same situation. Especially since Piazza couldn't hit out of Queens and because his crappy all-round defense TOTALLY cost us around 20 runs a year.

And remember that time the Mets issued a statement that if Piazza refused to play 1B, they would put him on the disqualified list? And Piazza told them to fuck off?

Good times.

[Guest KC]

BS: >>>reading this thread and mentally substituting "Piazza" for "Soriano" and laughing myself sick at all the hypocrisy<<<

Picturing this is amusing.

[Guest KC]

Rot, you forgot the times he was penciled in the lineup to play first and he
insubordinately didn't take the field leaving his eight teamates stadning out
there with their fingers up their asses and making the manager look like a
dufus head.

Ah, sweet memories - just like yesterday.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Speaking of Piazza, he's apparently less done than he appeared during the WBC: .360 AVG/.407 OBP/.720 SLG, 3 HR in 25 Spring Training AB.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

The Mets, unlike the Nationals, clearly lacked the judgment or the testicles to tell their unsubordinate prima donna to play a different position or else-- that's not the part that's hypocritical. Stupid, yes. Pandering, yes. Hypocritical, no.

It's not necessary for every single part of an analogy to bear equal weight for the analogy to bring up laughter. Not if you have a good sense of humor, that is.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: The Mets, unlike the Nationals, clearly lacked the judgment or the testicles to tell their unsubordinate prima donna to play a different position or else-- that's not the part that's hypocritical. Stupid, yes. Pandering, yes. Hypocritical, no. It's not necessary for every single part of an analogy to bear equal weight for the analogy to bring up laughter. Not if you have a good sense of humor, that is.

Oh, I thought your post was funny, Bret.

You do raise a good point about management. On the one hand, the Nationals made the decision to trade a young, good, cheap 1B/OF for a young, overrated (but talented) and highly paid 2B in order to fill a spot in their outfield, knowing full well that said 2B had resisted being moved to the OF in the past.

On the other hand, through their aggressive managerial style, they did manage to force Soriano into LF.

Clearly, I'd rather have our GM and (in this situation at least) their manager, but if we're picking and chosing the whole package, I'm sticking with what we've got.