Met Killaz??: Tony Gwynn et al

[Frayed Knot]

Gwynn's numbers from UMBD


Pretty durn good, but it IS Tony Gwynn we're talking about here.
Boiled down to an average length season (617 ABs acc to Bas-Ref) it winds up as:

	R	H	2B	HR	AVG	SLG	RBI	SB
vs NYM	97	219	42	10	.356	.486	75	18
vs ALL	92	209	36	9	.338	.459	76	21

Better, but not ridiculously so.
Probably closer to just random variation.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Frayed Knot wrote: Probably closer to just random variation.

Mebbe not. You got to take into account that half of this is at Shea, where his production should be (but wasn't) a shade lower than normal, I think,

AND check out Gwynn's road-/home advantage--if SD wasn't a hitter's park for most of his career, then he didn't have that much of an advantage at home either against the mets, making this looking even better

AND you need to account for OBP--if he hit for more power against the Mets but lost some OBP, then it's pretty much a wash. But if he also got an improvement in OBP, then I'd say it was more than a blip on the radar screen.

[seawolf17]

Pat Burrell (normalized to 584 AB season):

	R	H	2B	HR	AVG	SLG	RBI	SB
vs NYM	91	149	27	50	.255	.567	131	2
vs ALL	81	151	32	30	.258	.476	105	1

Yowza.

[nymr83]

well within what would be expected given his stats, you'll get a few extra hits here and there against a team and its just luck...those aren't Chipper Jones numbers.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yabbut, going against Ron Darling for a full year...

AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB	IBB	SO	HBP	SH	SF	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
617	272	52	21	0	21	21	63	0	0	10	.441	.452	.593	1.045

Not only does he break Geore Sisler's hit record before Ichiro (and put it out of Ichiro's reach), but you've got too think he'd do it running away, because Darling would eventually get tired of pitching to him for a full season.

[Guest cooby]

How did you guys do that? I wanted to look for Schmidt vs Mets

[seawolf17]

Chipper's Mets numbers aren't actually too different from his overall numbers. Two or three more homers, but other than that, pretty close.

[Frayed Knot]

And I suppose to be REALLY accurate here we'd want to first take out the player's 'vs NYM' numbers from the total numbers so we'd be comparing how he did against the Mets only to how he did against NON-Mets.
With Burrell that would make the power numbers even more lop-sided as he's actually somewhat LESS than a 30-HR guy against all others (approx 27.6/yr) ... and nearly double that against the blue & orange (although normal in most other respects except for the not-surprising accompanying rise in SLG & RBI)

[Guest Edgy DC]

Coo:

1) Go to the UMDB.

2) From the "Other Teams" dropdown menu, choose "Phillies."

3) From the banner at the top pick "Phillies Players."

4) Click on Schmidtty.

[seawolf17]

Mike Schmidt:

(1) Open up their b-r.com and umdb.com pages.
(2) Figure out the scale factor, based on a 162-game season (at the bottom of their b-r stats). Schmidt's average 162-game season was 563 AB; he had 910 AB against the Mets. Therefore, you divide all his Mets stats by 1.616 (910/563). You get:

	R	H	2B	HR	AVG	SLG	RBI	TB
vs NYM	98	144	22	30	.255	.474	100	267
vs ALL	101	151	27	37	.267	.527	107	297

Actually a little worse against the Mets than his overall numbers.

[Guest cooby]

Thanks! That is a part of UMDB I never realized existed...

[seawolf17]

Yet another reason why the UMDB is the Greatest. Site. Ever.

[Guest cooby]

Here's his chart, I see what you did Seawolf, but still his numbers were pretty good. I knew there was a reason I have always hated him!

http://leaptoad.com/mets/opponent.php?PlayerCode=6000

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I like it too!

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Nymr83 wrote: well within what would be expected given his stats, you'll get a few extra hits here and there against a team and its just luck...those aren't Chipper Jones numbers.

Not sure you mean Gwynn or Burrell here, but ALL of this team-killer stuff is luck, because even a lifetime of chances is a small sample. Take Frank Lary's record against the Yankees lifetime, earning him the nickname "Yankee Killer" (and probably earning him 2 tours here.) Lary went something like 23-14, which was a small improvement over his w/l pct vs other teams, but all he had to was lose or two of those games, and his edge would be just about nothing. And you know that one or two of those 23 had to be close games.

[Frayed Knot]

"but still his numbers were pretty good. I knew there was a reason I have always hated him!"


Schmidt's numbers are good, but that's mostly because he's Mike Schmidt!
The trick in finding "A Killah" is to find guys who were better than their norm against the Mets. Schmidt, it turns out, was actually somewhat worse (worse being a relative term and all).

I suspect the subset of MLB players that fans of a given team THINK were better against their squad probably approaches 90%

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

There isn't much magical about any particular boiled-down matchup that couldn't be explained away with proper amounts of lucky and bad breaks, prolly.

What Ron Darling and I agree on tho is the perception of one. I can barely remember a Met game in which Tony Gwynn didn't kill us. I mean, I'm sure they exist and all, but, you know, like, whatever.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I mean, I'm sure they exist and all, but, you know, like, whatever.

Brilliant! ... Astutely worded! ... First-rate!

Johnny Dickshot wrote: What Ron Darling and I agree on tho is the perception of one. I can barely remember a Met game in which Tony Gwynn didn't kill us.

If only you had lent Willie that kind of support for his memory of the Billy Williams 3 HRs in Chi and two roundtrip airplane tickets on a 14-year-old's allowance.

[nymr83]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Not sure you mean Gwynn or Burrell here, but ALL of this team-killer stuff is luck, because even a lifetime of chances is a small sample.

well, there could be reasons behind it such as the team he kills having bad pitching or their park being heavily biased towards righties/lefties

[MFS62]

Are pitchers included?
Its the weekend and my shitty browser doesn't let me drill down on most sites below the main screen.
Can someone please do a Met vs rest for Mike Krukow?

Thanks in advance.
Later

[Guest SI Metman]

I thought Willie Stargell was another Met killer since I believe he has the homer record for a Met opponent (60), but his numbers aren't that far above his career norms. It was done on longevity.

[Guest cooby]

MFS62 wrote: Are pitchers included? Its the weekend and my shitty browser doesn't let me drill down on most sites below the main screen. Can someone please do a Met vs rest for Mike Krukow? Thanks in advance. Later

Another pitcher--Al Hrbosky

Ugh

[Frayed Knot]

Mike Krukow - The Polish Prince

He was 22 - 7 overall in 44 games (39 starts) between his stints on the Giants, Phils & Cubs. Boiled down to a "average season" (206 IPs) it comes down to:

	G/GS	IP	W - L	ERA	K	BB
vs NYM	37/33	206	18.5 - 6	3.69	142	73
vs ALL	34/33	206	11 - 10	3.90	138	72

Obviously a great W - L record without being wildly better in any of the components stats. The "Killer" tag probably comes mostly from the fact that he was 4-0 vs the great Met team in '86, plus 3-0 then 2-0 against their good teams in '88 & '89

[Guest Edgy DC]

He was 6-0 with wicked low ERAs versus them from 1981 to 1983 also, on three different teams.

[MFS62]

What made him especially hateful was the fact that in games when the Mets would hit him, his team would score enough to take him off the hook for the loss (and sometimes give him the win).
Plus, he always seemed to have a smirk on his face that I wanted to wipe off with a sledgehammer.
And Kiner loves him. I think he's the one who named him the Polish Prince. And, after Mike retired, when Ralph was at the mike on tv games, he would always have the cameras show Krukow in the other announcing booth. Drove me nuts. Why pay tribute to the enemy?

Later

[Zvon]

I thought maybe Glenn Wilson was just a Met killer when I went to games, but I looked him up.

He was in '85 and '87 although over all (with Pirates too) a .294 batter vs the Mets. As a Phil he hurt the Mets most

Wow,.in '85 he had 23 hits,7 doubles, 5 homers, 18 RBIs and a .365 ba.
A .746 slugging %>>>>>>Thats pulverizin the Mets.

Von Hayes was another who would hurt the Mets so bad at Philly games I went to.
Overall his career, not so much. But afew yrs he did.
In '86 he had 25 hits, 7 doubles, 4 homers, 16 RBI and a .357 ba.
In '85 he smacked 2 and drove in 6 in one game. I had to sit thru that, and I remember going home thinkin DAMN YOU VON HAYES!.

[Frayed Knot]

"In '85 [Hayes] smacked 2 and drove in 6 in one game"

Not just in one game, in one INNING!

[Guest Edgy DC]

I remember it as 5 RBI in one inning, leading off the game with a homer, then coming around again before the inning was over and hitting a grand slam, putting the Mets down something like eight- or nine-zip right out of the gate.

[Zvon]

ha!
Thanks for reminding me of those details.
I do remember that they were Met fan deflating monsterous moonshots and I really held them against poor Mr. Hayes in a very personal and unprofessional manner for the rest of his suckazz career.

[DocTee]

I remember some fool saying Von Hayes would be the next Ted Williams-- and Ralph Kiner shooting back that the only resemblance was in their uniform numbers!

Hayes was the centerpiece of a multi-player trade and was much bally-hooed....later, he was just loudly booed.