Most Hated Shortstop in Met History

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Thinking about the Ron Gardenhire entry in UMDB where the memory writer says he heard Ed Randall describe, laughably, the current Twin manager as "a beloved former Met" (also I think Topps has Gardenhire in their "All Time Fan Favorite" sets but to be fair he only played MLB as a Met, never as a Twin) and it kind of dawned on me that Gardenhire kind of was the Kaz Matsui/Rey Ordonez of his day. Probably not as heavily promoted though.

To be fair, SS was a pretty barren from trading Frank Taveras after the 81 season, untill Kevin Elster's first full season in 88. I mean there is a reason Gardenhire is still in the top ten in Games Played!

But is he the most hated guy to play short?
So here are the candidates:

Ron Gardenhire Hit .240 in his only shot as a regular. Put it this way, there is a reason he is managing in Minnesota

Rey Ordonez Like Matsui he was heavily promoted prior to his debut. Like Matsui his hitting prowess left much to be desired, though unlike Matsui he did have a way with the glove, though too much time was spent making the overly flashy play. Probably believed his own hype and ripping the fans the last week of the 2002 season sealed his fate

Kazuo Matsui Didn't have as bad of a year hitting his one year at short, but couldn't adapt at all to the way infield is played every wherelse on the Globe with the exception of the Land Of The Rising Sun

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

I loved Gardenhire. He signed a ball for me during 1985 spring training, and his enthusiasm for the game and for the Mets was wonderful. He was a nice guy - definitely not worthy of hatred.

[DocTee]

I voted other, since I detest Jose Oquendo.

[Zvon]

Jeeze...wheres the love for Rey?

Just cuz he had no bat?
Buddy H wasnt the best hitter in the world and you know he'd be a top fiver.
Probly number one in my book, but Im old school.

That list needs to be expanded so it has more of a chance to include someone we really might hate.

[Zvon]

="mlbaseballtalk"] Rey Ordonez ripping the fans the last week of the 2002 season sealed his fate

oh,...there was that....

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Hate is an ugly emotion.

[Guest KC]

I voted for Rey, but the description leaves a lot to be desired. Rey played
like 5 or 6 full season with the Mets and a couple of partials due to injury
and "stuff". Comparing him to Matsui is kind of whack. Rey had his own
Mets video day - he was at one time a special Mets defensive gem - shit,
I even got Sallie Q to admit that at least once or twice.

OE: Three gold gloves, the error free game streak ... c'mon ... don't make
me dig up pictures of ostriches and links to Rey Ordonez Death Watch.

[MFS62]

I voted "other" and was thinking of Al Moran as soon as I read the title of the thread.
I took the question to mean who I disliked (I don't like the "h" word) the most, rather than who was most disliked by Mets fans in general.

My feelings for Moran grew out of the frustration that they couldn't find anybody better.
Also, the first year he was here, he had this awful looking stance that made you just know he couldn't hit a lick. (or a baseball for that matter)
When he showed up the following year, he still had that same lousyy stance. And that is what moved him to the top of this category in my mind.

Later

[metirish]

I voted "other" but couldn't name any SS I hate...Kurt Abbott, Mike Bordick, Joe Mc...nah, as for Rey I admit when I first started following the Mets I loved Rey, I was amazed by what he could do with the glove, as time went on I became frustrated with his lack of skills with the bat...still he was one of the first Mets that was a fave so I like him....I've gotten over ripping the fans.

[Guest Edgy DC]

[Theoldmole]

I don't think I've ever hated a Mets shortstop.

[Valadius]

Hated? No.

Couldn't stand? Look no further than Rey Ordonez.

[Guest vtmet]

]don't make me dig up pictures of ostriches and links to Rey Ordonez Death Watch.

I just saw the Ambler Rey Ordonez Death Watch article the other day for the first time (ok, I must not keep up with everything that has ever happened at the MOFO apparently)...that was one of the funniest things ever...Ambler doesn't really look like that guy in that article, does he?

[Guest KC]

Yeah, that's really him.

You could be too, for all I know.

[Elster88]

I hate Kevin Elster.


I think this topic is stoopid*. But I'm stoopid too.

*This should in no way be construed as saying that the poster who posted this topic or those who responded it are stoopid. This is also not a message that this is not or should not be interesting to others. I respect your rights to discuss this topic and do not think less of you for doing so.

I don't want to be abusive or single any one out for unfair treatment because I disagree with their opinion.

[nymr83]

how about Mike Bordick? Ordonez gets hurt and everyone is all like "wow this guy is great, he's the savior, he can hit" and he came here and laid an egg.

[Guest cooby]

TheOldMole wrote: I don't think I've ever hated a Mets shortstop.

I'm with old mole. How can you hate a shortstop? They are too little.

[Zvon]

great pic Edge.

I went to the Ult Mets database to see a list of SS's, and I also cant seem to hate any of em.

I didnt know Tim Bogar, so I cant even say I disliked him, but he may be my least favorite met shortstop.

I liked Bordick.
Cause he was an old man like me,lol.

[Elster88]

]everyone is all like "wow this guy is great, he's the savior, he can hit"

I don't think anyone who had a clue was "like" this.

[nymr83]

everyone was saying it at the time, the Mets got him mid year while he was having an amazing season with the Orioles--
he had a 113 OPS+ as an Oriole (78 as a Met) that year (a mark which would have been the best of his career) .297/.350/.481 with the Orioles in 433 plate appearences including 16 homers, 22 doubles, 70 runs and 59 RBIs in 100 games.
in 59 games as a Met that year (not counting postseason he came and hit .260/.321/.365 with only 4 homers, 8 doubles, 18 runs and 21 RBI in 59 games (211 PA)

in the playoffs he proceeded to get 4 hits (all singles) in 33 at bats as well as 6 walks (none in the world series against the yankees, several against the then insanely wild Ankiel if i recall) he did not drive in a run.

so after a great 100 games in baltimore he came here and didnt live up to expectations and then took an even bigger nosedive in that small sample size that everyone remembers- the playoffs

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

A HBP didn't help his postseason any. I think he had a broken threumb or something.

[Elster88]

Nymr83 wrote: everyone was saying it at the time,

Who are you referring to? If you're talking about WFAN callers, then what I said still stands: Anyone who had a clue didn't say this.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: ="Nymr83"]everyone was saying it at the time, Who are you referring to? If you're talking about WFAN callers, then what I said still stands: Anyone who had a clue didn't say this.

Elster, there are amnesiacs here who'll deny it, I expect, but Rey had dozens of vociferous defenders on the old MOFO. I probably have a few Rey/anti-Rey threads saved on my hard drive, but take my word for it, some of these nutjobs made Rey into one of the Mets' most indispensible players, maintained that his hitting was eminently acceptable in the context of his great glove work, that Rey was underappreciated, that he was a much better hitter most people thought, etc.

And, far from KC's memory, I freely conceded that Rey was a fabulous defender. My argument was that he could be the best defensive player in baseball, and might well be, but since the value of defensive play was limited, he was an overall drag on the Mets and was getting many more innings than his overall play warranted. I thought rey would have been fine as defensive replacement and utility infielder and that Bobby V. made a huge mistake in slotting him in as a regular shortstop.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Elster88"] ="Nymr83"]everyone was saying it at the time, Who are you referring to? If you're talking about WFAN callers, then what I said still stands: Anyone who had a clue didn't say this. Elster, there are amnesiacs here who'll deny it, I expect, but Rey had dozens of vociferous defenders on the old MOFO. I probably have a few Rey/anti-Rey threads saved on my hard drive, but take my word for it, some of these nutjobs made Rey into one of the Mets' most indispensible players, maintained that his hitting was eminently acceptable in the context of his great glove work, that Rey was underappreciated, that he was a much better hitter most people thought, etc.

I was challenging Nymr's contention that "everyone" was calling Mike Bordick a savior. I doubt anyone was foolish enough to put the words "savior" and "Bordick" in the same sentence. Not saying anything about Rey here or what people thought about Rey.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I've never had trouble remembering that I was romanced by Rey-O's glove and acrobatics to the point where I argued pretty hard for his retention. My feeling was that Rey given the chance could improve his hitting to the point where he'd be around average at his position, and that his athletic ability asnd eye-hand in the field indicated he could.

He never did, of course and that helped me understand that guys with his skills (low OBP, little plate discipline) and as it turned out, his attitude (didn't listen to coaches, bad teammate) are unlikely bets to do so.

But giving him the chance wasn't the worst thing I suppose because he was f-u-n to watch.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I thought Bordick was a no-brainer, especially after the Larkin deal fell through (Phillips deserves credit for trying there: I think with Larkin we could have won us the WS that year).

Anyway there wasn't much not to recommend Bordick: He was having a good year, solid gloveman and lauded for his character. No question he slumped badly, then got hurt in the playoffs. That really killed us because it forced the Mets to rely on barely-alive Kurt Abbott, his bad back and zero range.

As it played out, the 2000 season provided the lesson that teams with poor depth at skill positions can't expect to win the World Series. This was a flaw in the approach from the very start.

[metirish]

I agree with Dickshot, Bordick was a solid pick up at the time, didn't he hit a homer in his first AB?..

[Benjamin Grimm]

I was also glad to get Bordick, although the word "savior" never crossed my mind. I had really grown to dislike Rey Ordonez, and was happy to get a veteran to bridge the gap between Rey and Alex Rodriguez, who everyone just knew would be a Met in 2001.

I also preferred the Bordick deal to the attempted trade for Barry Larkin, because I was more willing to give up Melvin Mora than Alex Escobar.

It goes to show you never can tell.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Sorry, Elster, misread the context of that quote.

But I did search through my hard drive, and found this gem, among others, from back in the day:

Why Does Everybody Wanna Dump Ordonez???????

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Author
Comment
Rowdy As Usual
Mets Rookie
posts: 6
(11/21/00 1:11:56 pm)
Reply
Why Does Everybody Wanna Dump Ordonez???????

He's the best SS in baseball (defensively). If we spend the money to get Hampton &
Mussina, Ordonez is a luxury at SS. You all say it that pitching and defense ALWAYS
win games!!!!!1
If you don't get AROD, keep Rey Rey. That's the LAST i wanna hear of Bordick!!!!!!!!!!!
metfan8500
Mets Veteran
posts: 125
(11/21/00 1:13:24 pm)
Reply

Re: Why Does Everybody Wanna Dump Ordonez???????

I aggree. I never said I wanted to get rid of Ordonez. Lets get players that we
REALLY need. Pitching and outfield. We have a pretty solid SS.

Daring ideas are like chessmen moved forward; they may be beaten, but they may start a
winning game.
keith
Mets Starter
posts: 58
(11/21/00 1:29:39 pm)
Reply
I was thinking the same thing

As mets fans, how many arguements did you get in defending Rey Rey, saying he was
the best out there with a glove? I know I did. Now everyone is ripping the guy apart
because of a handfull of games he batted 180 or so? In 99 the guy had 60 RBI, not
many number 8 hitters do that. Also in 99 he started off slow and turned it on in June
with, I beleive, an almost 400 BA for the month.

If there is no AROD then let Rey Play!
BaseballWizard
Mets All-Star
posts: 243
(11/21/00 1:31:28 pm)
Reply
Re: Why Does Everybody Wanna Dump Ordonez???????

No one is questioning Ordonez's defense. I think it is the incredible disappearing bat
that everyone has a problem with. If we were to sign Moose and Hampy and have to
keep Ordonez for reasons of budget, I for one would not be disappointed.

Realistically, I doubt that we will be able to sign both those gentlemen and the fact of
the matter is this ... as much as we need to keep the pitching staff together we also
need to add some offensive pop.

Ordonez can be like another pitcher in the batting order and in fact Hampy is a better
hitter than Rey. While ARod is more costly than Rey he is only a shade or two below
Rey in the dept of defense and with the improvement in the bat dept there is no
question that overall he would be a huge upgrade to Rey.

The bottom line is this ...

A team must take and make any opportunities that it can to make itself better. Of
course there are constraints like $$$, therefore the team needs to figure out how to
get the most bang for its buck.

I think the difference in opinion right now is what exactly that is.
dak11
Mets Starter
posts: 66
(11/21/00 3:05:14 pm)
Reply
Keith

You are wrong..

"In 99 the guy had 60 RBI, not many number 8 hitters do that"

- Copied off of ESPN

"Hitting
Ordonez is the worst-hitting regular in the majors. His batting average is adequate,
but represents the sum total of his offensive contributions. He's far too aggressive,
rarely walks and has virtually no power. His on-base plus slugging percentage was the
lowest in the National League last year, as it was in 1998. In the postseason,
television announcers praised him for his 60 RBI from the No. 8 spot, but the average
NL team got 66 RBI from its eighth-place hitters last year. And 13 of 15 Senior Circuit
clubs got more offense from their shortstops. To his credit, Ordonez is a fine bunter.
His 49 walks last year, while still too low a total, were more than he had in the
previous two years combined"

Please notice the part where it's said that the AVERAGE NL team got 66 RBI's from it's
8th place hitter.. Ordonez is below average..

espn.go.com/mlb/profiles/.../5560.html

"Also in 99 he started off slow and turned it on in June with, I beleive, an almost 400
BA for the month"

One month batting .400 doesn't help all of those month's batting sub/low .200's.
Imagine if that was true for a minute.. For a whole month he batter .400 and he STILL
ended up with only a BA of .258.

I'm not saying we have to get rid of him. But his offensive production up to this point
of his career has been horrible. If he does not improve this (specifically OB%) then his
defense should not keep him on the Mets and/or in the majors. IMO.
edgy DC
Mets Hall-Of-Famer
posts: 1741
(11/21/00 3:19:44 pm)
Reply

Re: Keith

Well, wait a minute there. Sixty-six rbis from the number eight slot is not the same as
from the number eight hitter.

That would presumably include all one hundred and sixty-two games, each time
through the lineup.

I assume Rey started something like 154 games, and was removed in maybe 10-15 for
a pinch hitter. Do those 66 average RBIs include pinch hitters batting in that slot.

Of course it's all academic. Rey had his best year in '99, with a .636 OPS. But RBIs are
largely a team stat and he had Roger Cedeno having an excellent year in front of him
for much of the season. Even from there, he's going to have to do a little better to
keep his spot. While your visiting ESPN.com, see how well he did with RISP, I imagine
it was pretty good (relatively).

All I ask for is a little better--.650/.660 OPS--if (glory) he can maintain his '99
defensive level. It's interesting that posters here, including his defenders, don't see
him as the excellent bunter ESPN.com sees. He obviously only gets to bunt in late
innings with a pinch hitter following him, but I wonder which opinion is more accurate.

HOME BOYS ONLY!!!
Remington Steele
Mets Rookie
posts: 8
(11/21/00 3:31:01 pm)
Reply

Your Steele The One For Me

I actually would not mind having Rey back at short next year. Not withstanding his
attempts at bunting in the playoffs in '99, which was horrible. Good point about
Cedeno batting ahead of Rey, thus giving him more chances for an RBI even with a
ground out. He also saw more fastballs because of Roger.
dak11
Mets Starter
posts: 67
(11/21/00 3:44:05 pm)
Reply
Edgy

He batted .263 (W/ runners in scoring position) , slightly better then his batting
average for the year.

3 year avg. .262 (97-99)

To be fair Bordick only batted .248 last year and .251 (w/ runners in scoring position)
in 99.

3 year avg. .246 (97-99)



edgy DC
Mets Hall-Of-Famer
posts: 1742
(11/21/00 3:49:30 pm)
Reply

Re: Edgy

Thanks, dak. While Bordick is useful for comparison's sake. I think he is ruled out of
the Mets' plans.

One thing about RISP batting average is that I imagine most number eight hitters in
the NL have distortedly low averages in such a situation, because they can easily be
pitched around with runners on second and third, and, if the pitcher can't catch them
chasing a pitch or two, a walk sets up a force with the pitcher coming up who can
usually be gotten on fastballs.

HOME BOYS ONLY!!!
Ms Met
Mets Hall-Of-Famer
posts: 1757
(11/21/00 5:18:19 pm)
Reply
I knew there was a reason I like you Rowdy!

That's what I've been saying all along. You're not half bad, you know?! We could
do better at SS, certainly with ARod in there, but we could also do MUCH worse -
DEFENSIVELY, at least. And, as I've said many times, and as is STILL the case - SS is
still PRIMARILY a DEFENSIVE position. If we don't land ARod, we MUST keep Rey-O
and add the extra offense where we NEED it most - in the OUTFIELD!

Obviously, key to all this is keeping the pitching staff solid. Starting with retaining our
own FA's. Without the pitching, it won't much matter WHO'S hitting in the #8 spot, or
any other spot for that matter.

Two other things:

1.) Mr. Steele: I don't know what ESPN was basing those remarks on, but I would not
call Rey a "good bunter" by any means. He has a terrible propensity to pop the ball
up, whether he's bunting or swinging!

2.) keith - This is hardly a new issue. People have been ripping Rey for his lack of
offense since he came up to the majors! It's practically an Olympic sport around here!

VIVA EL REY-O, METS SS '01!!!!

NY METS - 2000 NATIONAL LEAGUE CHAMPS!!! 2001 BELONGS TO US!!
Rey ordonez Sucks
Non-Roster Player
(11/21/00 5:55:49 pm)
Reply
The Name Says it All

Rey sucks. It's a fact everywhere except among a deluded few in this forum.

Send Rey back to Havana for a box of cigars.
doc g
Mets Hall-Of-Famer
posts: 512
(11/21/00 6:08:03 pm)
Reply | Edit
Why does everybody about wanna dump Ordonez?

Why does everyone around here think water is wet?
doc g
Mets Hall-Of-Famer
posts: 513
(11/21/00 6:27:50 pm)
Reply | Edit
And why can't I get the "edit" function to work?

to continue my previous thought....

"Why does everyone around here think birdies go 'tweet-tweet'?"
BaseballWizard
Mets All-Star
posts: 253
(11/21/00 9:53:05 pm)
Reply
Ms Met -- have to disagree ...

No position is PRIMARILY one or the other. Ultimately, each position MUST be a
balance of the two. Sure, historically, SS has been one of the weaker hitting positions
as has catcher, but, no team should just say "Well we have a guy with a great glove
who cares if he can hit."

IMHO, saying that any position is primarly one or the other is out of date thinking. It
is also something of an excuse for players who are weak in one aspect or the other.

I am not trying to claim that every guy on the field has to be a god with the glove
and the bat, but, a players excellence with one is not a reason to excuse the other.

Unfortunately, what can be seen in baseball today is a great deal of the opposite of
your agrument ... "Who cares about the glove, can he hit?" Rotisserie baseball is a
clear example of that. No one would ever willing draft an Ordonez because of his
extremely weak bat. Unless of course there was no real choice.

More than not the fringe fans want to see home runs and offensive explosions. Many
do not appreciate the mastery of a well pitched game or dazzling defense. Sure
defensive plays make the highlight reels but little thought is given to what that kind of
defense means to the game.

OK, as I get off my soap box ... here is a summary:

1. Defense IS extremely important SO IS SOLID OFFENSE.

2. Excellence in one is not an excuse for a total lack of the other.

3. The old way of thinking ... that a position is primarily one or the other is becoming
outdated and, IMHO, should and that goes both ways.
hoss23 bph
Mets Rookie
posts: 19
(11/21/00 10:26:57 pm)
Reply
defense

You win by being defensivly strong up the middle.
Catcher, 2nd and short and CF.
Now as far as Catcher goes I think that besides throwing out runners, which Mike
gets a bad rap for because Met pitchers are not good at holding runners on but still
below average, Mike is very good at calling a game, blocking a ball and controling his
pitchers. Second with Fonzie up a second don't really have anything to complain
about, Jay or Hamilton in CF.
Both can play a very good center, I believe that Daryl has gone some rediculous
amount of games without making an error and Jay can flat out go get um. Throw the
best defensive SS in the Bizz in there and you have to say we are pretty strong up
the middle.
So I feel we need to, like everyone is saying retain our pitchers and go get another
very solid one and we need a bat in left or right to give us the extra pop that was
sorely missed last year at times. If we can be very solid 1-7 then whatever Rey does
with his bat would be gravy s long as he maintains the high level of defense.
Rey Ordonez Sucks
Non-Roster Player
(11/22/00 2:37:23 am)
Reply
So I suppose

The fact that Rey Ordonez is an almost sure out everytime he comes to the plate,
and is the world's greatest rally killer this side of the pitcher means nothing?

Except when Hampton pitches, having Rey in the line-up is like having the pitcher bat
twice every go around.

He sucks.
MrMet
Mets All-Star
posts: 247
(11/22/00 7:48:20 am)
Reply

Re: So I suppose

I don't want to get rid of Ordoñez but if we could get AGod it would be better (maybe
we could ship Rey out on AGod's private jet)

Ciao
edgy DC
Mets Hall-Of-Famer
posts: 1747
(11/22/00 9:08:40 am)
Reply

Re: So I suppose

Mr. Met, I salute you for finding a way to get the "en-yay" Spanish character into
Rey's last name.

As tedious as it is to watch Rey bat during a prolonged slump, the hostile tone of the
poster who preceeded you is getting more tedious.

HOME BOYS ONLY!!!
Rey Ordonez Sucks
Non-Roster Player
(11/22/00 9:38:51 am)
Reply
Look DC

Don't be edgy.

I am not hostile, except to muddled thinking. Someone HAS to point out how bad Rey
is in the eyes of almost the entire world, because in here there are those who persist
in seeing value in the valueless.

And in the end, that hurts this team because it creates in the minds of ownership and
management that fans will except suckitude from players, so long as they are ours,
whatever "ours" actually means.

Good Players Only! (GPO)

Weis Guy
Mets Rookie
posts: 5
(11/22/00 10:10:05 am)
Reply
Re: Look DC

You can say what you want about his offense but Rey Rey gobbles up Sojo's
groundball and we are still tied going into the bottom of the ninth of Game 5
BaseballWizard
Mets All-Star
posts: 258
(11/22/00 10:26:47 am)
Reply
Re: Look DC

Weis,

While I agree that Ordonez gets to that Sojo dribbler, there is the whole point of can
he get the throw there in time. I can not say he would or would not have gotten a
clean throw to Ziele or that Ziele could have fielded a poor throw. There is still a
possibility that one runs scores even with Rey on the field.


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Author
Comment
Ms Met
Mets Hall-Of-Famer
posts: 1771
(11/22/00 1:44:59 pm)
Reply
Wizard...

You misread me, Oz. I am NOT making excuses for Rey! He sucks as a hitter - I've
ALWAYS admitted that, and you're right - no amount of defense, no matter how good,
makes up for that. What I'm saying is that there are certain positions on the field
where DEFENSE is more crucial than others. At those positions, it behooves any team
to have the best possible DEFENSIVE players they can. SS is at the TOP of that list,
and always has been. Certainly those players should also be able to hit, but in truth
whatever offense you get from them is gravy. The better the gravy, the nicer it is,
but as long as you're getting the necessary GLOVEWORK from them, you tolerate the
rest. And you make up for whatever they may be lacking offensively with power in the
REST of your lineup. You can only field ONE player at each position, but you have
EIGHT bats in the lineup, outside of the pitcher. It's MUCH easier to make up for a lack
of OFFENSE than it is a lack of DEFENSE. Last season, and the performance of
Morborbott, should be all the proof you need of that.

I hear what you're saying, but I do not feel that this kind of thinking is at ALL
out-dated. Yes, offense is becoming more and more important to the game as the
game progresses, but the last time I looked they still issued GLOVES at the beginning
of each season. I don't think it's such a stretch to expect players to know how to USE
them!

As I've always said - you need offense AND defense to win games. Sacrificing one for
the other NEVER really works, it just leaves you WAY off kilter. It's not about one OR
the other, it's about achieving a BALANCE between the two. That's what makes for a
winning team!

NY METS - 2000 NATIONAL LEAGUE CHAMPS!!! 2001 BELONGS TO US!!


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[Elster88]

I don't know why I enjoy reading old forum threads when I wasn't even a participant. You should pop those into the archives, Bret.