A Very Hot Stove

[Elster88]

The Mets have been piling up free agents and superstars for two winters now: Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner, Redman. There is still talk of adding Soriano or Manny into the mix. How do you feel? Are we doing what everyone despises about the Yankees?

At least the Mets are spending their money on good players and leaving the Randy Johnsons and Carl Pavanos alone.

What about the homegrown aspect of everything? Do you just root for laundry? Will you root for anyone who wears the blue and orange (minus Asshead and a select few)?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I feel all of those things in different proportions.

[Benjamin Grimm]

They're behaving like the Yankees, yes. And hopefully it will lead to the same kind of success. I'd take six pennants in ten years, even without the four World's Championships. (I'd want at least one or two, though.)

But that doesn't make them the Yankees. As long as they don't start calling Shea a cathedral, and start talking about the magical properties of the uniform, and all that nonsense, they won't be the Yankees.

It's not just the big-spending that makes the Yankees hateful. There's so much more, and I can't imagine the Mets taking on that personality, or "aura."

[Guest heep]

We are starting to feel like the Yanks and I don't like it. Quotes like these make me cough up my breakfast.

Jeff Wilpon admitted as much when he said, "We want to create something exciting on the field instead of waiting for the minor-leaguers to produce."

As much as the club loves Milledge's trend line, one senior official said, "You're talking about the difference between a Hall of Famer and a guy who's never played a day in the big leagues."

The points are well-taken, but from a purist perspective and not a Wilpon business perspective, I personally would rather see the Milledge than Ramirez in the outfield next year. Why are the Wilpons so shortsighted? Do they feel that overshadowed by the Yankees? I do not get it.

We needed a presence in the lineup and we got it. We needed a closer and we got the best. We will acquire catcher. We lost draft picks. Ok. We lost a pitching prospect. Ok.

Do we need to give up Milledge? Ramirez is is a two tool HOF presence for 3 years. You cannot compare the 2 players, but Milledge has the potential to provide 5 tools and 15 years. I don't like this deal.

Does anyone share my thoughts?

[Elster88]

Hold the phone. I'm hoping not to get another thread that discusses deals and potential deals. Not to be a board Nazi but we have 18 threads like that. I want to know more how you feel about big spending and wheeling and dealing. Suppose Manny...(actually forget Manny, as JD noted he's discussed everywhere)...suppose a superstar FA could be signed or traded for right now who is unquestionably better than Milledge will ever be and is only in his early to mid twenties(ie a Pujols type) How would that make you feel?

Maybe I should've left out that laundry question.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yup (to heep).

The unstated implication of that senior official's statement --- that Ramirez will continue to play like a Hall of Famer and Milledge's lack of big-league experiece (at what --- 19 and 20?) is conclusive and concrete --- is narrow-minded and shallow.

Anybody can act only on evidence in front of him. A good businessman in a highly competitive field has to glean the future from trends besides recent bottom-line returns.

Outside of baseball, development departments makes exciting dynamic world-changing businesses. Acquisitiions departments prop up tired old exploitative soul-sucking businesses.

[MFS62]

Are the Mets becoming the Yankees?

Not until obnoxious fans with bad hair from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks, start showing up in droves at Shea Staduim.

Later

[Elster88]

MFS62 wrote: Not until obnoxious fans with bad hair from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks, start showing up in droves at Shea Staduim.

No one like that has EVER rooted for the Mets. Especially not in 1986. Forget the fans and the bandwagoners.

There are plenty of silvers out there who root for the Yanks and are intelligent.

[Willets Point]

The Yankees still have substantial advantages over the rest of the league. Other teams have stocked up on free agents and big names and had it flop (see Orioles, Rangers) or were sucessful briefly but couldn't sustain it (1997 Marlins, 2001 Diamondbacks). Hell, even the Mets 2001-2002 offseason acquisitions were considered bold at the time but lead nowhere near Yankee success. When the Mets can sign an aging all-star with a prohibitive salary on waivers and convince him to be happy coming in off the bench once a week, when the Mets can overpay on gazillion-dollar contract to a first baseman who had one great year and then release him without a care if he flops, and when the Mets can resign all the star players on their own team they want whether developed in the farm or acquired elsewhere by blowing the other suitors out of the water, THEN they'll start being like the Yankees.

[Guest old original jb]

The difference is still simple.

The Mets organization and all true Mets fans hope that the Mets will field a competitive team, appear in the post season, and persevere to a World Series title. There will be true joy when and if the Mets win.

Yankee fans (and some of those who run the Yankee organization) feel entitled to win. Each year, the World Series is theirs to lose, and if it doesn't happen rather than the sense of honestlhy pursuing and falling short of a hard goal to which no one should feel entitled, there is the sense of someone having dropped the ball. If they win, it is another day in the office. If they lose, it is "cover your ass and don't take any calls from Tampa."

As a Mets fan, no matter how many top tier free agents we get, I know in my heart that no one is every entitled to anything in life except hope.

[nymr83]

heep wrote: We needed a presence in the lineup and we got it. We needed a closer and we got the best. We will acquire catcher. We lost draft picks. Ok. We lost a pitching prospect. Ok. Do we need to give up Milledge? Ramirez is is a two tool HOF presence for 3 years. You cannot compare the 2 players, but Milledge has the potential to provide 5 tools and 15 years. I don't like this deal. Does anyone share my thoughts?

we didn't need "a" lineup presence, we needed multiple ones, Delgado is a good addition but i still don't expect us to be in the top 5 in the NL in runs scored.

as for Ramirez, all "tools" are not created equal...hitting for average and hitting for power (the two "tools" that i assume you are saying he has) are more important than the others.

[Elster88]

="old original jb"]The difference is still simple. The Mets organization and all true Mets fans hope that the Mets will field a competitive team, appear in the post season, and persevere to a World Series title. There will be true joy when and if the Mets win. Yankee fans (and some of those who run the Yankee organization) feel entitled to win. Each year, the World Series is theirs to lose, and if it doesn't happen rather than the sense of honestlhy pursuing and falling short of a hard goal to which no one should feel entitled, there is the sense of someone having dropped the ball. If they win, it is another day in the office. If they lose, it is "cover your ass and don't take any calls from Tampa." As a Mets fan, no matter how many top tier free agents we get, I know in my heart that no one is every entitled to anything in life except hope.

I agree with the difference between Met fans and Yankee fans.

But I'm wondering something slightly different. Does it bother you that the Mets are picking up all these guys? Is it okay to do so simply because you, as a fan, don't feel entitled to winning a WS?

[Guest old original jb]

]Are the Mets becoming the Yankees? Not until obnoxious fans with bad hair from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks, start showing up in droves at Shea Staduim.

This statement is so wrong in so many ways.

There are lots of "well-dressed", "sophisticated", "polished" fans of both teams who despite their fine provenance are masters at being obnoxious and stupid.

There are also lots of fans of both teams with "bad hair ", from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and "gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks" who have good brains and big hearts.

No need to make generalizations--(other than the one about Yankee fans feeling a sense of entitlement!)

MFS62--it makes me worry that your heart is ten sizes too small.

[MFS62]

]MFS62--it makes me worry that your heart is ten sizes too small.

Actually, I am a very compassionate person. My heart is as big as the ocean. But sometimes my heart doesn't let my head (or typing fingers) know about it.

That was meant as a joke, and if anything was a shot at the so-called "Bleacher Creatures" in Yankee Stadium. And the sports cartoonists in the Daily News have on occasion pictured them as I did. And I did say "obnoxious" fans.

But, you're right. You can't generalize. Looks can be deceiving. And I had a feeling I would get some storm and fury from posting that without explanation.

Later

[Guest old original jb]

Glad to hear it and thanks for the explanation, MFS62.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Nymr83 wrote: we didn't need "a" lineup presence, we needed multiple ones, Delgado is a good addition but i still don't expect us to be in the top 5 in the NL in runs scored.

Seriously? Because the difference between us and the 5th best NL team in RS last year was only 18 runs, and personally, I think the difference between Delgado + Nady/Diaz and Mientkiewicz/Jacobs + Cameron/Diaz is greater than 18 runs.

I know no one believes me, but our offense wasn't that bad last year (7th in RS in the NL), and we've just replaced the deepest, darkest hole in our offense with a monster. We'll probably come close to leading the league in 1B production, just a year after getting the worst 1B production in the league--that's a HUGE swing for us.

Assuming we sign either Molina or Hernandez, we should replace Piazza's production, and I think it's fair to expect that any decline from Cliff will be matched by an increase in production from Beltran and/or Reyes.

So IMO, a fair expectation would be the following: league-average offense from C, SS, LF, CF & RF; upper tier offense from 1B & 3B; & terrible offense from 2B.

To me, that's easily a top-five offense--were it not for the extreme park effects of Cincinatti & Philadelphia, I'd say a top 3 offense.

If we replace Matsui with a capable 2B, I think we WILL be a top 3 offense--and clear 800 RS for the first time since 2000--regardless of park effect. And, of course, our SS, LF & CF all have shots at being well above average at their respective positions.

[Elster88]

Matsui's 2006 numbers: .315 BA, 45 doubles, 98 Runs scored (hits in front of the pitcher until the AS break, when he's moved up to second after a minor injury sidelines Beltran for 10 days. Matsui performs so well in that spot that the lineup is adjusted to leave him there and he also bats first on Reyes' days off).

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Elster88 wrote: Matsui's 2006 numbers: .315 BA, 45 doubles, 98 Runs scored (hits in front of the pitcher until the AS break, when he's moved up to second after a minor injury sidelines Beltran for 10 days. Matsui performs so well in that spot that the lineup is adjusted to leave him there and he also bats first on Reyes' days off).

And caaaaaandy rains from the sky.

[Elster88]

Yes! Got one vote for shut up! Right around when KC shows up on the blue bar!

J/K, KC, hopefully you're in a good mood today.

[Zvon]

Lol.

No way.
The Mets are the Mets.
We are just once again becoming the better baseball team in New York City.(like the mid to late 80s)

Will Wilpon and Omar spoil us?
Maybe.
But Ive been with this team through thick and thin (------alotta thin).

..........................spoil me!

[Theoldmole]

I'm with shut up.

[Elster88]

I can't open a web page or watch a sports show on TV without tripping over 5 segments crying that Omar is a reckless free spender and that the Mets are made of money. But between Piazza and Cameron leaving the Mets budget can't be much higher than it was last year.

To be fair to the media assclowns, I started this thread wondering if the Mets were becoming the new Yankees.

They, and this thread, will have a better case if Manny or Soriano do show up.

But for now they should STFU because this is beyond beating a dead horse.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I can't begin to tell you how serene my existence has been since I stopped listening to WFAN.

The day the Mets signed Wagner I switched to WFAN for the first time in months. After hearing about 60 seconds of Mike and the Mad Dog I had to switch it off.

[Elster88]

Not even just the FAN. It's staggering what's out there. You haven't noticed it while perusing the web?

[Benjamin Grimm]

I guess I haven't been perusing all that much either.

I don't doubt that there's a lot of crazy talk out there.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I think with the addition of Lo Duca, we're now at last year's salary.

$30M came off the books (including the Cameron deal), IIRC.

[Elster88]

Yeah, I started this thread prematurely, assuming either Manny or Soriano were joining the team, as I mentioned above. The Mets haven't really overspent so much, unless you consider their payroll from last year to be overspending (which is debateable, IMHO).

[Valadius]

The prospect of Soriano joining the Mets grows ever dimmer.

[metirish]

That's a good thing Val.....Furcal got some nice money from the Dodgers....$39 million for three years...wow

[Valadius]

Indeed it is a good thing. I can't stand the thought of his defense.