Hall of Fame Ballot

[Vic Sage]

I disagree with that column. To the extent a member of the BBWAA is a columnist, and not just a beat writer providing coverage, he/she is being paid to write OPINIONS. That such writers, who DO see more games than anybody else in any position to vote for the HOF, should be suddenly disqualified from expressing their opinion seems perverse.

What such columnists, and all beat writers too, for that matter, DO have an objective interest in is the preservation of the sport's history in the HOF. While athletes may benefit economically from their enshrinement, the writers do NOT. Their interest is the only one untainted by self-interest. To take the vote away from them... who would you give it to, instead?

Does Sheridan suppose a popularity contest of fans is a preferred system, more likely to put forth the most qualified candidates?

Or just use the veterans committee for ALL nominees? Isn't such a small body rife with personality issues, political interests, lobbying... does HOF enshrinement rest best with such a small group voting, none of whom are guaranteed to have watched the careers of the eligible players?

who else, then?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Were writers allowed to vote on the White Sox bannees?

Why does Goose have to go in before Mariano Rivera?

[Guest mlbaseballtalk]

Edgy DC wrote: Were writers allowed to vote on the White Sox bannees? Why does Goose have to go in before Mariano Rivera?

Yes they were

Because if they are holding the "Sutter before Gossage" rule I don't know I WAS JUST SAYING

[metirish]

Gossage is pissed ...

] Former closer Rich "Goose" Gossage isn't too happy that he failed to win election into baseball's Hall of Fame, according to a report in the New York Post. Gossage received 336 votes, which is short of the 390 needed for election. The former right-hander finished behind fellow closer Bruce Sutter, who won election by getting 400 votes, and former slugger Jim Rice who got 337 votes. "I just don't get it," a frustrated Gossage told The Post from Colorado on Tuesday. "I'm at a loss for words." Gossage, a former Yankees' fireballer, seems angry that he failed to get into the Hall of Fame despite the fact that he has, among other things, more career saves, victories, and strikeouts (948) than Sutter. "I just can't believe Sutter got in before me," Gossage added."He deserved it. I was hoping Sutter and I could go in together. ... I don't know if I ever will make it." "You know what, I never hear from these guys who don't vote for me," Gossage said. "But I'll take on any writer, anywhere, on any show, and I will bury him." Gossage also feels badly for peers such as Rice, Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven � all of whom were left on the outside looking in. The "Goose's" feelings concerning Rice's snub were particularly strong as he called it a "joke" that the Twins' Kirby Puckett was elected on the first ballot. Rice meanwhile is now 0-for-12 in Hall entry attempts. "If Jim Rice had played in the Metrodome, he would have torn the place down, and that's nothing against Kirby Puckett, that's just the way it is," Gossage said. What's more, Gossage often pitched two or three innings to earn his saves, and he says comparing him to current closers such as Trevor Hoffman or Mariano Rivera is like comparing apples to oranges. "The job is so easy because they're only pitching one inning," Gossage said. "Writers have forgotten how the role has changed." And don't get him started on Barry Bonds and other allegedly drug-enhanced sluggers we watch now. "Hitting in a game is no different than hitting in a home run contest," Gossage said. "It [ticks] me off to say Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter. He's playing in a wussy era. The game is soft. You never get thrown at today. Last thing a hitter has to worry about today is getting hit. The first thing Hank Aaron had to worry about is: Am I going to survive this at-bat because I'm black."

[Guest Edgy DC]

Let's get him here for a chat while he's angry.

[Frayed Knot]

"If Jim Rice had played in the Metrodome, he would have torn the place down, and that's nothing against Kirby Puckett, that's just the way it is," Gossage said.

As opposed to that pitching palace he played in instead?
Look I could make a good argument for Rice, but one of the things holding him out according to some -- in addition to his mediocre OBP, surly personality, and lousy fielding that is -- is his huge home/road splits. His stats would have been considerably worse playing almost anywhere else.

And I could really do without the; 'everything was so much harder and tougher when I played' whine-a-thon.
That sounds stupid from every generation that repeats it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think he was pissed about his own slight, realized he was coming across bitter, and so started taking up other guys' cases to lend some belated nobility to his cause.

I'd still like to talk to him while he's going nuts.

[Willets Point]

In my day we had to walk four miles to school ... uphill ... both ways ... in two feet of snow ... fighting off bears with our notebooks .... and we liked it!

[Frayed Knot]

This isn't a new or fresh rant from Gossage (who I would have put in before Sutter btw). He's been doing this for years now and will repeat the above act at any time of the year.
I might be the exact same way under the same circumstances for all I know ... but it still sounds a bit crass.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Dale Petroskey announced he'll go in with a Cards insignia on his hat. No, I don't think that means he's "going in as a Cardinal," but I really think of his real Hall of Fame work being his Cubbie work.

[Guest 86-Dreamer]

Sutter had a 10 year peak from 1976-1985 where he was used exclusively as a closer. Gossage also had a 10 season peak from 1975-1985 (excepting 1976 when he started) so it is quite simple to compare their peak value over the same time frame. For comparison sake, I have also included Mariano Rivera's career totals to date in 10+ seasons

	RG	BS	MR
Games	554	607	657
Innings	975	978	807
IP/Game	1.76	1.61	1.23
ERA	2.06	2.71	2.33
ERA+	186	142	197
Saves	253	283	379

Now if you think saves are all that matters, I guess you could make a silly argument that Goose is third best of this group, but I think these numbers show pretty clearly that he is better than Sutter and in my opinion the best of this bunch.

[seawolf17]

I'm going to respond to the "voting for Jefferies" issue in this thread, rather than the Brogna thread.

So what? Every year, a handful of random never-gonna-make-its get a vote or two. That's the whole point of the democratic process! If I want to go in and write in David Wright for President, let me do that. It doesn't mess with the integrity of the system, it doesn't diminish whoever does get elected, it doesn't do anything. It makes David Wright feel good that he got a vote for President.

Same thing with Jefferies. It's the same thing with the movie poll voting here; if I think Airplane! is one of the Top Ten Movies Of All Time, then I'm giving it a five. And other people will give it a two, because they thought it was dumb. And others will give it a four, because it was classic, but not an "all-time" movie. And that's fine, because it'll settle somewhere in the middle. 75% of the voters aren't going to vote for Gregg Jefferies, or Mackey Sasser, or Darryl Strawberry. And he's not going to get into the HoF. And that's fine.

I just don't understand the outrage.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, the stupid thread police were sleeping on the job letting Irish post that sucka over there.

Lousy rotten thread police.

[metirish]

From reading the Klap article he seems to be somehow outraged that anyone would vote for Jeffries yet Gossage was not elected, one has nothing to do with the other though.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, I guess it coud be argued that there are guys out there who used their tenth and final vote for Jefferies (or someone like him), thereby screwing Gossage by leaving no room on their ballots for him.

I think it's a tack that lacks a compelling logic, though.

[Elster88]

So you are required to use all ten of your votes?

Why vote for a guy who clearly doesn't belong in the Hall?

You're taking the argument completely the wrong way. You shouldn't need to find an argument to justify NOT voting for a guy. You need to find an argument to justify voting for him.

There is no such argument for Jefferies.

[HahnSolo]

It seems like Klapisch's other point is that if the voting were made public, fewer writers would make these wink, wink selections. Which may be a good point. I don't think the guys who voted for Walt Weiss would really want to have to defend that position.

[Elster88]

And since they are writers, defending their votes shouldn't be so difficult for them. If they're actually going through a thought process to make their votes then they just have to transcribe those thoughts.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

No, you're not required to vote for ten. It's just the maximum. There's no minimum. (This is reminding me of our Schaefer POTG debates.) You can even submit a blank ballot if you think no one's deserving.

If I were a voter, I'd never vote for ten players. In fact, I think it would make sense if the number of slots on the ballot was reduced to five or six. There's never going to be a year in which ten players get voted in.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]You're taking the argument completely the wrong way. You shouldn't need to find an argument to justify NOT voting for a guy.

I don't think I did that. What I did do is agree that voting for Jefferies is very very unrelated to not voting for Gossage.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I would suspect that the guys who voted for Jefferies probably also voted for Gossage. I'd bet that the Jefferies votes came from writers who every year vote for the ten best. I know, from reading various "how I voted" columns over the years, that some writers do routinely vote for ten players.

I don't think there's any justification for voting for the ten best every year, but it is within the rules.

[Elster88]

Edgy DC wrote: ]You're taking the argument completely the wrong way. You shouldn't need to find an argument to justify NOT voting for a guy. I don't think I did that. What I did do is agree that voting for Jefferies is very very unrelated to not voting for Gossage.

Oh. My apologies. I agree with that, too.

[Frayed Knot]

Writers will occasionally do that just to throw a bone to a player they were buddies with; kind of a way to give him the right to say he received a vote even though it means nothing in the long run.
There was a big to-do over Jim Deshaises getting a nod a few years back from a writer who admitted he was doing just that.

How Jefferies got his votes is anyone's guess.