Hall of Fame Ballot

[Frayed Knot]

Dickshot, your link is busted.


Meanwhile, John Brattain over at The Hardball Times makes the case for Albert/Joey Belle.

[Vic Sage]

i agree that Belle is worth consideration, despite his personality issues, but he's not a more impressive candidate, IMO, than Jim Rice, and certainly not the all-around player that was Andre Dawson. I'd have to put him squarely behind those fellas.

And none of them had the impressive career of Blyleven or the absolute dominance of Gossage.

I think, sometimes, the short-career guys get OVERvalued, because they didn't play long enough to have the inevitable bad years at the end of a career dragging down their overall numbers. If you look at Dale Murphy, for a while there he was an absolute LOCK as a HOFer...but he crashed and burned too soon, and kept playing anyway. I don't think you should be overvalued simply because injury prevented you from putting up the inevitablely mediocre late-career seasons.

I'm not saying that a protracted career should be preferred, but merely that the peak/plateau periods for each HOF candidate be compared, not just the career totals, which can be shortened by injury at the zenith or extended through a protracted and mediocre twilight.

My criteria continues to be at least 10 excellent seasons, of which at least 5 were amongst the top 10 at your position in your era. then, specific accomplishments (ROY,MVP,CY,GGs, post-season) are factored in, plus "impact on the game" (if any), "dominance", etc. This is why the 4 "tests" are so useful, as they do factor all this into consideration.

My HOF enshrinement for this year:
- Goose
- Cap'n Bly
with Rice, Dawson and Belle sittin' on the fence.

Next year:
- Rip
- Tony the Tiger
with Bash Bro #1 on the fence,
and Bash Bro #2 cleaning toilets

[seawolf17]

Another case for Jim Rice.

]For a period of 12 years -- 1975-86 -- Rice led all American League players in 12 different offensive categories, including home runs (350), RBI (1,276), total bases (3,670), slugging percentage (.520), runs (1,098) and hits (2,145). In that span, his typical season looked something like this: 29 homers, 106 RBI, 91 runs scored and an average above .300. But what really elevates the case for Rice is context. He led every player in his league in virtually every significant offensive category for a dozen years. And when you add in all of the National League players from the same era, Rice still leads in five categories and finishes second in three others. First or second in eight different categories for a dozen years? That sounds plenty dominant enough for me.

[MFS62]

Rice and Gossage will make it. I'd also vote for Blyleven.

Tommy John (also on the ballot) doesn't have to be voted into the Hall. He's already got a new wing named in his honor.

Later

[nymr83]

SeaWolf- although i do believe that Rice belongs in the HOF, you have to be careful with arguments like that one because not every player's career starts and ends at the same time and it is entirely possible that if you pick a dozen other outfielders whose careers partially overlapped into that period you could find a better 12 year span for each of them...i'm not saying it would happen in this case but its the reason i dont like those arguments...it like that book that tries to build a team for each decade, it doesnt tell me much because a guy could have been dominant from 1975-1985 and he'd be on neither the 70's team nor the 80's team.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Jim Rice, for instance.

[Vic Sage]

i agree that saying "yada yada" was the best pitcher of the 80s (jack morris?) is an arbitrary and misleading argument.

However to say that, during the 12-year plateau of a particular player's career, he lead his league in 12 different offensive categories, is not an arbitrary time period. It's the specific era of his playing career. During his peak, he was one of baseball's most dominant hitters and these numbers simply bear that out.

I would agree that a more ACCURATE analysis would be to see how many times during EACH of those 12 seasons that he lead the league in what categories (if any). To the extent that seawolv was saying that Rice finished 1st or 2nd in 8 offensive categories in EACH of those 12 seasons, then that is a plenty good argument.

[nymr83]

Vic Sage wrote: I would agree that a more ACCURATE analysis would be to see how many times during EACH of those 12 seasons that he lead the league in what categories (if any). To the extent that seawolv was saying that Rice finished 1st or 2nd in 8 offensive categories in EACH of those 12 seasons, then that is a plenty good argument.

that would certainly be a good argument, the entire 12 year span isn't imo because ther could be a ton of guys with partially overlapping better careers

[Guest Edgy DC]

The problems with the black ink argument is that (1) some of the categories are less important and (2) some are overlapping. If you led the league in homers and doubles in one year, well, then, you likely led the league in slugging as well, and, if Tim Raines is in front of you, you likely led in RBI also.

Neither of these, though, is meant to diminish the legacy of Jim Rice. His candidacy is strong.

And 12 years is a pretty good sample size.

[MFS62]

I'm hoping there is some way the MLB Hall can recognize the lifetime contribution to the game made by Max Patkin, the "Baseball Clown".
He doesn't fit into any of the sub-halls (executives, writers, etc.)

Later

[Guest Edgy DC]

Last day to get in your selections. To my previous selections of Bert Blyleven, Rich Gossage, and Bruce Sutter, I'd like to add Alan Trammell.

[seawolf17]

Rice, Sutter, Morris, Murphy, Dawson, and Goose.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Here's a vote for the ever-popular "No One."

[Vic Sage]

Gossage
Blyleven

I've been on the fence about Rice and Dawson, so i'd vote "no", since fence-sitters don't get the benefit of the doubt.

[Guest Iubitul]

I've always believed that if you have to ask if a player should be in the hall of fame, then the answer should be no. After thinking long and hard, I would vote for no one on this ballot.

[Theoldmole]

]I'm hoping there is some way the MLB Hall can recognize the lifetime contribution to the game made by Max Patkin, the "Baseball Clown".

Or Al Schact.

[MFS62]

Iubitul wrote: I've always believed that if you have to ask if a player should be in the hall of fame, then the answer should be no. After thinking long and hard, I would vote for no one on this ballot.

Then I'll bet you're waiting breathlessly for next year's ballot when Bobby Bonilla, Derek Bell, and Darryl Hamilton will be on it.

And, yes, Mole, Al Schact too. I forgot about him. IIRC Al performed mainly in major league parks while Max spent most of his career making minor league crowds laugh.

Later

[Frayed Knot]

Sutter Sails Solo!!!!

[Guest sharpie]

Rice and Gossage real close but no cigars.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Frayed Knot wrote: Sutter Sails Solo!!!!

Cool. That matches my ballot!

Hopefully the regular season and postseason will also march to my orders this year.

[metirish]

A big congrats to Sutter.

[seawolf17]

Great for Sutter. Loved him as a kid.

[Guest sharpie]

He got in with 76.5 percent of the vote, if he had gotten a few less then nobody woulda gone in.

[Elster88]

sharpie wrote: nobody woulda gone in.

Has that ever happened?

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

It last happened in 1996. But in the past, any time the BBWAA didn't elect anybody, the Veterans Committe did.

[MFS62]

A closer of the current eligibles breaks through the glass 75% ceiling.
And it wasn't a poultry- named Yankee.

Later

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Is this one of the years that the Veterans Committee meets? Or will Sutter really be a solo act?

It would have been pretty funny if Sutter had missed, and there were no "veterans" to induct. The ceremony at Cooperstown would have been limited to this year's broadcaster, I guess.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I support Sutter, so contratuations. But electing him and not Gossage strikes me with a big Huh?

One was a dominant game-closing maniac who had two bad years and called it quits.

The other was a contemporarry, somewhat more dominant game-closing maniac who faded slowly, then put in an extra decade as a successful role-playing reliever. He kept going right up until the strike sent him home.

I guess Sutter's been on the ballot longer, so his case had more urgency. He had only a couple more years left.

Did you know that Goose won 124 games (almost twice Sutter's total) despite starting only 37 times (and completing 15 of those 37 starts).

[Guest sharpie]

In X-Met voting:

Orel Hershiser 58
Dwight Gooden 17
Rick Aguilera 3
Greg Jefferies 2

Only Hershiser got enough to stay on the ballot.

What at one time looked like Dwight Gooden's HOF career officially over. Also, Will Clark didn't make the cut -- he was another one of those anointed very early.

[MFS62]

sharpie wrote: Also, Will Clark didn't make the cut -- he was another one of those anointed very early.

How early? He didn't even bat cleanup on his college team. (Neither did teammate Raffy Palmiero.)

Later