Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 I don't know if this was posted in the regular forum, but 2005 is live and ready to be picked apart if anyone is interested. Hint Hinthttp://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/2005.shtmlOE: I changed the subject so this can just be the 2005 thread.
dgwphotography Old-Timey Member Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 ok - give me a few days - I'll start crunching the numbers, make a list, and check it twice...
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 I wasn't singling anyone out - I have more half finished projects than anyoneto be doing that. I just thought a few people might want to start looking at 'em.
Valadius Old-Timey Member Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 I can't wait to be a part of this. How is this done each year?
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 >>>How is this done each year?<<<I knew there was a reason I saved the ranking threads and restored them here.
Edgy MD Site Manager Posted October 14, 2005 Posted October 14, 2005 Rank the top 30 Mets from 2005. Simple as that. The other information can be found in the thread atop this forum. With other detours found strewn about.
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 Certainly you can afford me a tiny bit of sarcasm, Edge - there are forty-one example years to weed through.
Frayed Knot Old-Timey Member Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 (edited) How is this done each year?Pretty much anyway you want.You can jump in either by creating your own list for critque or by plunging into an ongoing discussion of someone else's. How you go about concocting your list - blending the pitchers with the hitters, or rating good part-timers vs mediocre full-timers, etc. - is your choice. You can do it entirely by gut or you can sabremetric the thing to within an inch of it's life. Just be prepared to defend your conclusions if - or let's face it ... WHEN - peeps here question your logic, your intelligence, and quite possibly your family lineage. There are really only a few rules & guidelines:- 30 players only, ranked from 30 points to the top guy and 1 to the bottom guy. We used 42 different players this year which means the 12 true bottom feeders will be off the list entirely. - We're looking to rank for real results only and this year only. In other words, don't go demoting guys because they have "Yankee/Brave cooties" on them, or because they annoyed you by smirking after giving up a run or something. This should be based on perfromance not likability. By the same token we're not looking to rank players "on the curve"; so if Player A had a better season than Player B then rank them that way as opposed to putting B higher simply because his salary or expectations were lower, or by anticipating what he "might have done" had he been brought up sooner and the stupid-ass manager given him more starts, better lineup slots, etc., or how his future looks for 2006 and beyond. This is strictly a 2005 season report card.Eventually, we reach some kind of consensus.The 42 players in 2005, ranked by use:Hitters by AB:Reyes -- Beltran -- Wright -- Floyd -- PiazzaCairo -- Cameron -- Diaz -- Mientkiewicz -- MatsuiAnderson -- Castro -- Woodward -- Jacobs -- OffermanValent -- Williams -- Daubach -- A. Hernandez -- DiFelicePitchers by IP:Martinez -- Glavine -- Benson -- Zambrano -- HeilmanIshii - Seo -- R. Hernandez -- Looper -- Bell Trachsel -- Padilla -- DeJean -- Aybar -- KooGraves -- Ring -- Takatsu -- MathewsHeredia -- Hamulack Edited October 15, 2005 by Guest
Frayed Knot Old-Timey Member Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 Here's where I'd like to kick off the discussion;I think it's pretty clear that Wright & Floyd were the best offensive players. The question is; in which order?Wright led Cliff in runs scored: 99 to 85; RBI: 102 - 98; 2Bs: 42 - 22; BBs: 72 - 63BA: .306 - ..273; OBA: .388 - .358; SLG: .523 - .505Floyd his more HRs: 34 - 27, struck out less: 98 - 113; stole better: 12 of 14 vs 17 of 24; and GiDP'd less: 5 vs [u:9bgu2fku]16[/u:9bgu2fku] !So why does my gut say that Floyd had the better season?Well, for starters, it seems to me - and I'm always leery of baseball phrases that start "it seems to me" - that Cliff just got the bigger hits all year long, that he played better defense, that the lineup depended on him more, etc.So go ahead, someone make an argument that backs me up on Floyd deseving the top spot (at least among non-pitchers) or, conversely, tell me why I'm all wet.
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 Then someone chimes in and says that Wright had 28 win-shares vs. Floyds26 so you don't know donkey doo. And then someone else says that win-shares is nothing but donkey doo and didn't you watch any games?
Guest ScarletKnight41 Guests Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 Plus someone points out that Wright won the Crane Pool Schaeffer Player of the Year award, so that should carry some weight with the 2005 rankings.
dgwphotography Old-Timey Member Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 My initial list has Floyd third behind Pedro and Wright.
Willets Point Old-Timey Member Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 And appeals to New York's broad Caucausian demographic.
Valadius Old-Timey Member Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 Ok... time to begin my first foray into this hallowed process!The first thing I would do is begin to lump players into four categories:Major: Players who played a major role during the seasonSupporting: Players who played a large supporting role during the seasonMinor: Players who played a minor role during the seasonNot Enough: Players we can disqualify immediately for not having much impactSo here is my grouping (in no particular order within the grouping unless otherwise noted):MajorDavid Wright (1)Cliff Floyd (2)Pedro Martinez (3)Jose Reyes (4)Carlos BeltranMike PiazzaKris BensonTom GlavineBraden LooperVictor ZambranoRoberto HernandezAaron HeilmanMike CameronVictor DiazMike JacobsJae SeoSupportingChris WoodwardRamon CastroMarlon AndersonDoug MientkiewiczJuan PadillaKaz IshiiKazuo MatsuiMiguel CairoMinorSteve TrachselDanny GravesDae Sung KooHeath BellJose OffermanGerald WilliamsNot EnoughAnderson HernandezTim HamulackMike DiFeliceBrian DaubachFelix HerediaEric ValentMike MatthewsMike DeJeanJose SantiagoManny AybarShingo TakatsuRoyce RingCan we agree upon the twelve players I have listed as "Not Enough" as the players we exclude from the rankings?
Benjamin Grimm Old-Timey Member Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 All you have to do is list your personal Top 30. Everyone else will do theirs, and thus the consensus rankings are formed.
Valadius Old-Timey Member Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 If you insist:1. David Wright2. Cliff Floyd3. Pedro Martinez4. Jose Reyes5. Carlos Beltran6. Tom Glavine7. Mike Piazza8. Kris Benson9. Mike Cameron10. Victor Zambrano11. Roberto Hernandez12. Victor Diaz13. Jae Seo14. Mike Jacobs15. Braden Looper16. Aaron Heilman17. Ramon Castro18. Kazuo Matsui19. Marlon Anderson20. Chris Woodward21. Doug Mientkiewicz22. Miguel Cairo23. Juan Padilla24. Kaz Ishii25. Heath Bell26. Steve Trachsel27. Jose Offerman28. Dae Sung Koo29. Gerald Williams30. Danny Graves
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted October 15, 2005 Posted October 15, 2005 He's not insisting, that's just the way all the years were done. Read some ofthe threads, some of them are pretty entertaining (well, to a Mets geek). Someyears didn't get a lot of action because of apathy or the initial poster just nailedthe rankings so well there wasn't much to argue about.
nymr83 Old-Timey Member Posted October 24, 2005 Posted October 24, 2005 ok i'm working on this now to stay away from my casebooks for a few minutes...my method for first hitters: OPS+ multiplied by plate appearences. players with a negative OPS+ (there were 2) were given a "1" OPS+. i didn't like how this turned out at all, the disparity between certain players were strange.next i tried (OPS+ * PA) - (100-OPS+ * (1/4)PA) this was done because an ops+ under 100 is generally not somethig you want and the further under you go the worse off you are. this also added to those with OPS+ scores over 100this got the met hitters into an order that i felt almost comfotable with: wright, floyd, beltran, reyes, piazza, cameron (,) diaz, mientkiewicz, jacobs, castro, anderson, matsui, woodward, cairo, offerman, valent, williams, daubach, hernandez, difelice.i think my problem now is 3 things: offense other than what is measured by OPS+ (ie reyes on the basepaths), difficulty of defensive position, & how good that defense actually was. a combination of these factors (which i dont have numbers i trust for) makes me want to bump reyes ahead of beltran, i'll also push woodward ahead of matsui.when i do the pitchers i'll need to kick a few hitters out entirely, the last 3 (daubach, hernandez, defelice) will definetaly go. valent and williams are question marks for now, offerman and higher will almost definetaly stay...i'll edit this or post my complete list when i do the pitchers, edgy if you care whether i edit/post again let me know.
Valadius Old-Timey Member Posted November 2, 2005 Posted November 2, 2005 Are we gonna keep going with this or are we waiting until after the song parody contest?
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted November 2, 2005 Posted November 2, 2005 My intention wasn't to make this the 2005 rankings thread ... things justsnow ball around here somtimes. I have a rankings list, but I thought thethread was supposed to be started by someone (the reason he is the oneescapes my memory totally).Again, a couple of the newer posters who are interested, if you read someof the archived years you'll see this can take quite awhile to get done.It's Nov 2 of the year in ranking ...
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted November 18, 2005 Posted November 18, 2005 Yo Lubie, are you going to start a 2005 thread or would you like me to justgo ahead and do it?
Guest abogdan Guests Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 One man's rankings relying heavily on VORP:WrightPedroFloydGlavineReyesBeltranSeoPiazzaCameronHeilmanR. HernandezDiazBensonJacobsZambranoCastroLooperAndersonWoodwardPadillaMinkyTrachselKazOffermanCairoKooRingBellIshiiG. Williams
Frayed Knot Old-Timey Member Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I'd say that VORP - or your interpretation of it - heavily credits good part-timers: Seo, Jacobs at the expense of longer term mediocrities: Matsui, Cairo, Benson.That's a pretty hefty rank for Offerman too.
Valadius Old-Timey Member Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 As much as I detest Cairo, Offerman definitely shouldn't be ranked higher than him.
Guest abogdan Guests Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 Cairo's not a mediocrity. He was awful. He did nothing well. He wasted 367 plate appearances and was an awful defensive second baseman. Nothing like someone hitting in front of your $100 million player who makes an out over 70% of the time. He had an OPS of .540 hitting in the #2 spot in the lineup. He had a .630 OPS overall. There were 284 players in baseball who had over 300 PA last season. Only six of them had a lower OPS than Cairo. I should have ranked Koo ahead of Cairo, but I was being generous. Koo probably did more for the team in his 2 PA than Cairo did in his 367. Offerman only had 80 PA for the Mets, but he was still better than Cairo.Jacobs did as much in his 112 PA than Cairo or Matsui did in 2 to 3 times the PA. Jacobs had only 23 fewer total bases than Matsui did despite coming to the plate 155 fewer times. He had only 35 fewer total bases than Cairo despite 215 fewer plate appearances.
nymr83 Old-Timey Member Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Abogdan is right. when you are actually HURTING your team and taking up many at bats in doing so, you are far less valuable than the guy who went 1 for 3 with a single on the season. good part-timers vs. mediocre full-timers is a seperate issue from good part-timers vs. bad full-timers.
Guest OlerudOwned Guests Posted November 29, 2005 Posted November 29, 2005 Just for reference, if anyone wants to get to THT's 2005 Mets win shares, its here
Guest d'Kong76 Guests Posted December 27, 2005 Posted December 27, 2005 Interest in this seems to be less and less - I'll post my ranks before year endafter I cross some i's and dot some t's. As noted in the first post, I edited thesubject to make this the 2005 thread.I know they were rank, but why don't a couple of people take a crack at thisfor a hoot.
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