I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

[batmagadanleadoff]

The Outsiders: No. 22, Keith Hernandez



https://theathletic.com/2276406/2020/12/23/the-outsiders-no-22-keith-hernandez/https://theathletic.com/2276406/2020/12/23/the-outsiders-no-22-keith-hernandez/



Joe Posnanski counts down the best 100 MLB'ers not in the Hall of Fame. I suppose Barry Bonds will get the #1 spot. Anyways, Joe's up to #22 today and the featured non Hall-of-Famer is Keith Hernandez.



Other Mets that made Joe's list: Dwight Gooden, Bret Saberhagen, Johan Santana and John Olerud.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Bobby Abreu also made Joe's list. Easy to forget he was a Met.

[Edgy MD]

Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20.



Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw.

I think Randolph made the list. I'll check.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. I think Randolph made the list. I'll check.

Yep.

[G-Fafif]

New York belonged to Donnie Baseball.

Pos, who grew up in an American League town in the Midwest, stumbled here. Otherwise his advocacy is appreciated.

[batmagadanleadoff]

David Cone, too.

[metsmarathon]

gah, was just gonna suggest cone....



As a non-met, kenny lofton has gotta be one of the highest-ranked players lacking an asterisk.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Gary Sheffield's #24, Orel Hershiser's #81.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: ... and maybe Tug McGraw.

The lowest ranked reliever on Posnanski's list (#67) is Dan Quisenberry.

[bmfc1]

It was very thoughtful to write about Keith on Festivus.

[Edgy MD]

=G-Fafif post_id=52696 time=1608746118 user_id=55]

New York belonged to Donnie Baseball.

Pos, who grew up in an American League town in the Midwest, stumbled here. Otherwise his advocacy is appreciated.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Gil Hodges isn't on the list. Will he be the highest ranked one-time Met?

[DocTee]

For all the love Keith gets, he's not even the best first-baseman of his era to be overlooked by the HOF: check out Cecil Cooper.

[DocTee]

For all the love Keith gets, he's not even the best first-baseman of his era to be overlooked by the HOF: check out Cecil Cooper.

[batmagadanleadoff]

=DocTee post_id=52827 time=1609115653 user_id=85]
For all the love Keith gets, he's not even the best first-baseman of his era to be overlooked by the HOF: check out Cecil Cooper.

[Edgy MD]

Others I'd put ahead of Coop include Jack Clark, Al Oliver, Don Mattingly, Darrell Evans, and maybe Steve Garvey.



And I like Cecil. I'd probably put him ahead of Richie Hebner or Bill Buckner. Don Baylor and Chris Chambliss too.

[batmagadanleadoff]

1st basemen on Po's Outsiders list (so far):



93 - Darrell Evans (mainly a third baseman)

92 - Steve Garvey

89 - Al Oliver (but he played 1b mainly at the tail end of his career)

87 - Lance Berkman (see Al Oliver comment)

80 - Will Clark

72 - John Olerud

53 - Don Mattingly

32 - Rafael Palmeiro

23 - Fred McGriff

22 - Keith Hernandez (Po sez Keith's career was better than modern 1st basemen HOF'ers Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda).



MIA (for now)



Dick Allen

Gil Hodges

[batmagadanleadoff]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=52842 time=1609131613 user_id=68]
1st basemen on Po's Outsiders list (so far):



93 - Darrell Evans (mainly a third baseman)

92 - Steve Garvey

89 - Al Oliver (but he played 1b mainly at the tail end of his career)

87 - Lance Berkman (see Al Oliver comment)

80 - Will Clark

72 - John Olerud

53 - Don Mattingly

32 - Rafael Palmeiro

23 - Fred McGriff

22 - Keith Hernandez (Po sez Keith's career was better than modern 1st basemen HOF'ers Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda).



MIA (for now)



Dick Allen

Gil Hodges

[Edgy MD]

An important part of the Hodges argument is combining the managing and playing careers into one legacy. I don't know if Posnanski is doing that.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: An important part of the Hodges argument is combining the managing and playing careers into one legacy. I don't know if Posnanski is doing that.

I think it's playing career only.



Three more: Albert Pujols, Mark McGwire and Joey Votto.

[G-Fafif]

Joe Posnanski's criteria:

There are 50 non-Hall of Famers — fifty of them, and again, I'm not even including active players or players who have not yet come up on the ballot — who have more Wins Above Average than any of the bottom 100 Hall of Famers. Many people will talk about, say, this year's ballot entry Mark Buehrle as a very good pitcher but not quite a Hall of Famer. That may be so. But he is one of the 50 I'm talking about. If Buehrle was elected to the Hall of Fame, he would immediately have a viable argument of being better than 100 players already in the Hall of Fame. We just don't realize how many incredible players are not in the Hall of Fame … or at least, I didn't realize it. So I decided to count down the 100 greatest players who are outside the Hall. I'm going to explain the countdown here, but first let me define terms: I am only including players on this list who could be elected into the Hall of Fame tomorrow. In my original list, I included all players, including active players and those who are waiting to get on the Hall of Fame ballot. I'll rank a few of those below to get us warmed up. And the ranking is not based solely on the player's greatness. No, I am ranking them in the order that I would vote them into the Hall of Fame. As you probably know, the Baseball Writers are asked to consider every player based on five characteristics: Playing ability Integrity Sportsmanship Character Contribution to team(s) on which they played. There has been a lot of controversy about the Hall of Fame character clause. The bottom four categories — integrity, sportsmanship, character, team contributions — have mostly been used to disqualify or attempt to disqualify players. But I don't think that was ever the entire point. I think the point was for Hall of Fame voters to be open-minded about greatness, to consider players who not only were great on the field but also were a credit to baseball, players who made the game better, players who brought color and life and teamwork and leadership to the sport. I have tried to think about all that in these rankings. But, of course, the most important quality by far is “playing ability.” I try not to forget that.

https://theathletic.com/2202108/2020/11/27/the-outsiders-hall-of-fame-top-100/?source=user_shared_articlehttps://theathletic.com/2202108/2020/11/27/the-outsiders-hall-of-fame-top-100/?source=user_shared_article

[DocTee]

Cooper and Keith are pretty damn close.



Each played parts of 17 years, most of which overlapped. In about 200 fewer games, Cooper has more HR (241-162), RBI (1125-1071) and a higher BA (.298 -.296).



They have they same number of top 5 MVP finishes (KH has the one win, of course) and Cooper has three times as many All Star appearances (15-5). Cooper has fewer Gold Gloves, naturally (11-2) but was no defensive slouch. He stole more bases, but had fewer runs scored. Keith bests him in OPS (.821 to .803), and if you factor in integrity, sportsmanship and character, well....Cooper never testified at the Pittsburgh drug trial.



If Keith deserves the HoF, and he does, than Cooper does too. Dale Murphy, as well.

[Edgy MD]

Walks. Lots and lots of walks.

[LWFS]

Best defense ever at the position and walks.

[G-Fafif]

First baseman Todd Helton is Joe's No. 19.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw.

Still no Tug. (And I ain't holdin' my breath for that.) But Billy Wagner checks in today at #17 - the highest ranked one-time Met, so far.

[nymr83]

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. Still no Tug. (And I ain't holdin' my breath for that.) But Billy Wagner checks in today at #17 - the highest ranked one-time Met, so far.

you'd have to think the list goes something like Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson? so you have about 12-13 spots left before it gets obvious - are there any potential Mets left?

[Edgy MD]

Just spitballing, but ... Hodges, Frank Viola, Tony Fernandez, Bobby Bonilla, Vince Coleman, Rusty Staub, David Cone, Mickey Lolich, Carlos Baerga, Mike Torrez, Ken Boyer, Jeff Kent ... stop me before I hurt somebody.

[nymr83]

Cone already made the list as did Kent.



I can't imagine most of those guys have anything resembling a legit hall of fame case.



Bonilla is the only maybe, but I'd have to think there is no way he's be the top 16 not yet revealed