Blasphemers of Jake

[G-Fafif]

Tim Kurkjian yammered incoherently during Monday night's ESPN telecast that Max Scherzer deserves the Cy Young edge over Jacob deGrom because of his won-lost record. And this afternoon, Phillies announcer (and unmissed erstwhile Met voice) Tom McCarthy suggested deGrom should place third, behind Scherzer and Aaron Nola, because of ye olde pitcher wins.

This is gonna be a tough mindset to overcome.

[bmfc1]

Michael Wilbon said on "Pardon the Interruption" that deGrom doesn't deserve the award because he doesn't win the game. Guest host Frank Isola talked about deGrom's lack of run support and Wilbon responded that deGrom needs to pitch better so his team wins. He then said that it's not about "stats" but winning. By that logic, just give the Cy Young Award to the pitcher who gets the most wins.

[MFS62]

Tim Kurkjian is a cretinous little shit. And those are his good points.
Michael Wilbon is from Chicago, so he doesn't know anything about baseball.
I never liked Tom McCarthy, and thought he was a heretic. He now demonstrates I was right.

In case anyone has noticed, those guys piss me off.

Later

Edited August 18, 2018 by Guest

[Frayed Knot]

In fairness to Kurkjian, he was arguing that it's close between JdG and Scherzer but he gives the edge to Scherzer because the ERA is close AND Scherzer leads in strikeouts AND in WAR AND is innings pitched AND in batting average against as well as in wins. It's not like little Timmy is some kind of stuck in the mud old timer wondering why he ever sold his horse for a car.


Wilbon is simply obstinate on this topic. Working as he does on an opinion show, he's set himself up as the anti-stats/anti-'millennials' standard bearer where he takes it far beyond just this particular topic.
Neither he nor Kornheiser could understand it when Felix Hernandez won the AL CY with a 13-12 record while David Price was 19-6 and Sabathia was 21-7 (so it's not like the writers haven't done this before) and neither could either understand why Trout should be MVP (he wasn't) the year Miggy Cabrera won the Triple Crown and no amount of explaining how while, yes, Cabrera had a slightly better offensive year, Trout was vastly superior in fielding, running, throwing, positional value, etc., could get them off that argument.


Don't care what McCarthy thinks/says but, c'mon folks, he's saying it about his own guy. Let's not pretend some of us (or Gary or Keith or Ronnie) wouldn't be making the same points if the roles were reversed (see Dickey vs Kershaw).

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, I got nothing against Kurkijian. I find him to be a mostly thougthful and gracious character.

As for Tom McCarthy, he got a front-row seat today.

[dgwphotography]

If the season ended today, I would give it to Scherzer, too.

However, the season doesn’t end today, and if Jake can get to 14-15 wins, combined with Scherzer sliding a bit, it would make things much more palatable for Jake to win.

[Vic Sage]

dgwphotography wrote: If the season ended today, I would give it to Scherzer, too. However, the season doesn’t end today, and if Jake can get to 14-15 wins, combined with Scherzer sliding a bit, it would make things much more palatable for Jake to win.

it would be more palatable to some, but not necessary to define Jake's season-long dominance. And Wilbon's "it's not about stats, it's about winning" is such standard garbage... "wins" ARE a stat, Mr. Wilbon, you stupid bastard. It's just an arbitrary one when allocated to a pitcher, as opposed to anybody else on the field, and doesn't measure what it's intended to measures. And the fact that you don't understand how stats work does not make the stats less applicable or valid. It just means you're a Neanderthal howling at the moon because you think its a ight the size of a rock that's about to fall on your head. The only thing worse than stupidity is arrogant stupidity.

[Frayed Knot]

btw, don't ya just love the sports geeks who dismiss the sabermetric aspects of baseball analysis and see it as an unholy takeover of the sport by a bunch of pocket protector wearing geeks ... and then switch immediately to discussions of Quarterback ratings as if those represent some kind of etched in stone truth or that there are more than about seven people on earth who know how they're calculated or what the number represents?

[Edgy MD]

I spent about two weeks in college once, reverse engineering, trying to figure out the formula for quarterback ratings. Got nothing.

Interesting Trivia: Blasphemers of Jake have won more Grammys than The Beatles.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

the Kurkjian defamation in this thread is totally off base

[Guest 41Forever]

Edgy MD wrote: I spent about two weeks in college once, reverse engineering, trying to figure out the formula for quarterback ratings. Got nothing. Interesting Trivia: Blasphemers of Jake have won more Grammys than The Beatles.

Bad ass.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

The Defamers of Kurkjian opened on that tour, they were only okay

[Guest d'Kong76]

MFS62 wrote: Tim Kurkjian is a cretinous little shit. And those are his good points.

Stuff like this needs backup; show your work, elaborate on why he makes
the silicon chip inside your head get switched to overload? Otherwise, it's mean,
pointless and brings the place down a notch... especially to visitors.

[MFS62]

“No one loves the numbers more than I do, but numbers don’t measure everything, especially when it comes to evaluating defense. And in the end, I am going to trust Buck Showalter’s eyes more than a set of statistics devised by someone who never played the game.” Tim Kurkjian

“To not look at the data is foolish, but to look at the data as having all the answers is even more foolish. It is a collision of new-school statistics and statisticians against old-school managers, coaches, and instructors. Neither side is right, neither is wrong; there is so much to be gained from listening to both sides.” Tim Kurkjian

Here are quotes where he said that you have to look beyond the numbers, yet the other night he used numbers to say Jake doesn't deserve the Cy Young Award. I've heard him say similar things before, and that got me angry. He is a respected baseball reporter, but maybe his senses have been dulled by working at ESPN too long. You're right. If I called him any name, it should have been hypocrite.

Later

[batmagadanleadoff]

degrom is pitching out of his mind this season. He's having a career year and I'm rooting for him as much as anybody. deGrom's about the only thing worth watching Mets-wise at this point of this lost season. But geez, has anybody been following Scherzer? I mean, really following him? deGrom's a star. But Scherzer's on a Hall of Fame trajectory. He's won as many Cy's as Tom Seaver and for all of that, Scherzer's having the best season of his career, statistically. While deGrom is coming off of what's probably the best three game stretch of his season, Scherzer's been even better over that time. So I don't see the problem with TK's comments (which I missed). But if TK's saying that right now, he'd give the Cy to Scherzer over deGrom, I'd agree. And I've figured out the absurdity of pitcher Wins and Losses back when I was a teenager, years before Bill James's Abstract was first published for the masses. There's nothing I don't know today about pitcher Wins and Losses that I didn't already know 40 years ago. So I'm not factoring Scherzer's Wins much.

Anyway, this is one hell of a Cy Young battle going on. Scherzer and deGrom are neck and neck and they keep on hurling top notch outings.

[Edgy MD]

One probably shouldn't count Nola out either.

The cool thing is, with all three pitchers in the same division, and one rough start possibly the difference maker in the race, their teammates may end up deciding this. The Mets play the Phils six more times and the Nats seven more times. The Nats and Phils lock up nine more times, starting tomorrow.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Too bad for Jake he doesn't get to pitch against the Mets, like Scherzer and Nola.

[Frayed Knot]

All three leading NL CY candidates will be in action Thursday afternoon.
deGrom vs Bumgarner in NYC while Scherzer vs Nola face each other at the same time some 300 miles to the south

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I spent about two weeks in college once, reverse engineering, trying to figure out the formula for quarterback ratings. Got nothing. Interesting Trivia: Blasphemers of Jake have won more Grammys than The Beatles.

I actually calculated QB rating (well, canadian QB rating) a few years back for a job. Wrote it into a SQL formula.

give it deGrom. Max has a slight edge in K-BB%, but deGrom's got a cushion in ERA/ERA-/FIP/xFIP.. but I guess if you like SIERA Max has it.

Both Nola and Scherzer have a .035 better BABIP which probably means they've been a little luckier at times.

Keep an eye on Patrick Corbin too. His ERA is a little higher but his other numbers are in the vicinity. It's the 73% LOB% compared to 81+ for the other guys that's making his ERA look bad. Corbin actually has more fWAR than Nola.

He'll never get it, with a 4.76 ERA because he plays for the Rockies, but Jon Gray is having a pretty damn unlucky year and pitching really well.

If you want a 6th guy on your list, it's Zack Wheeler.

[Edgy MD]

In Bill James Starting Pitcher Rankings, Since the Start of the Season,

• Jacob deGrom has climbed from the 13th-ranked starting pitcher to the fifth.
  
• Noah Syndergaard has fallen from the 62nd-ranked starting pitcher to the 64th (which will change tomorrow morning).
  
• Zack Wheeler has climbed from the 182nd-ranked starting pitcher to the 80th.
  
• Matt Harvey has climbed (!) from the 182nd-ranked starting pitcher (tied with Wheelie) to the 119th.
  
• Stephen Matz has climbed (also !) from the 174th-ranked starting pitcher to the 125th.
  
• Jason Vargas has fallen from the 100th-ranked starting pitcher to the 147th.
  
• Corey Oswald has climbed from an unranked starting pitcher to the 176th.
  
• Vance Worley has fallen from the 182nd-ranked starting pitcher to the 227th.
  
• A.J. Griffin has fallen from the 142nd-ranked starting pitcher to the 227th (tied withe Worley).
  
• Chris Flexen has fallen from the 182nd-ranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th (tied again).
  
• Robert Gsellman has fallen from the 151st-ranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th (tied again).
  
• Jerry Blevins (remember his start) has climbed from an unranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th (such a logjam).
  
• Drew Gagnon has climbed from an unranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th
  
• Seth Lugo has fallen from the 131st-ranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th.
  
• Rafael Montero has fallen from the 182nd-ranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th.
  
• P.J. Conlon has fallen from the 137th-ranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th.
  
• Cody Martin has fallen from the 137th-ranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th.

[batmagadanleadoff]

deGrom passed Kershaw, who dropped from 4th to 6th.

[MFS62]

Robert Gsellman has fallen from the 151st-ranked starting pitcher (tie) to the 227th (tied again)

I wonder how he will do when the relief pitcher rankings come out.

Looking at that list, I guess 227 is his lowest ranking.

Later

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: deGrom passed Kershaw, who dropped from 4th to 6th.

And Kershaw was #1 for like 2 1/2 years.

There are a lot of guys tied at 227 (including José Fernandez!), but a handful of guys ranked even lower than that.

I'd still like to have given Lugo another chance to show his merits as a starter this season.

[Edgy MD]

All three pitchers scoreless through two.

SOMETHING'S GOTTA GIVE!!

[Benjamin Grimm]

SNY.com wrote: In a poll where BBWAA (Baseball Writers' Association of America) voters were asked who should win the NL Cy Young award, Mets ace Jacob deGrom was the near-unanimous choice. DeGrom received 30 of 33 first place votes in MLB.com's poll, with Max Scherzer of the Nationals receiving the other three first place votes. When it came to point total, deGrom received 153, Scherzer received 101, and Aaron Nola of the Phillies received 63.

[Frayed Knot]

So here's a way of looking at things:

If the Mets had scored just three runs* in each game Jake started, his record would be (or would potentially be at the time he left the game) 21-1 with 10 No-Decisions
Scherzer, under the same conditions, 23-4 with 6 ND's




* 4.38 is NL league average. 4.24 is NYM per/game avg

[Edgy MD]

I think the real open question is whether Cy Young deserves the Jacob deGrom Award.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I did a Google search to see when the Cy Young winners will be announced, and it appears that it will be on November 14... at 2 a.m.!

The announced time has me skeptical of the announced date.

https://www.google.com/search?authuser=0&source=hp&ei=DZG7W4rUL5DL_QaTiYaYBQ&q=when+will+cy+young+be+awarded&oq=when+are+cy+you&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0j0i22i30l5.1272.3467..5775...0.0..1.299.2058.5j10j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..35i39j0i131j0i20i264j0i67.kJ2ts4SFDYI

[Guest d'Kong76]

I think there's a calandar listing of events at mlbdotcom.

[seawolf17]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I did a Google search to see when the Cy Young winners will be announced, and it appears that it will be on November 14... at 2 a.m.!

45 has asked all sports commissioners to make any major announcements via middle-of-the-night tweet, because that's how he does it.