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Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket
Guests
Posted


Ceetar wrote:
Sherman isn't a baseball insider, he's an idiot.


He tells you more about the Mets than you realize.

All the post contains is unsourced opinions
.

Actually it is full of verifiable facts, loaded with context and perspective, and offers an informed opinion based on them.


Grand Central Contributor
Posted


no it's not. I actually read this one. It's full of quotes like I said. We've gotten like one non-committal second-hand quote on this entire process that was a wishy washy indictment of stats from Fred, but had nothing about whether that would actually influence decision making. I'm gonna need more than an anonymous opinion from a random person about what he or she thinks the Mets are doing to believe 99% of the press on this isn't just running off that one quote from a month ago.


Posted


You're the second poster in this thread to bring up bad journalism. Un-named sources, writer speculation, stuff like that.

Certainly it's terrible not to source your information. One writer hears something from an un-named source, another writer speculates, and then next thing you know it's been "widely reported".

But on things like this, a GM search, what is a writer to do? What qualifies as good journalism? And do you have any examples? I'm not in the industry. I have no idea what the standards are.

The Mets are not going to make any public statements, certainly the candidates are not going to talk on the record, and no one in the organization will give their name for fear of losing their job. If good journalism requires someone to speak on the record, would we get any information at all?

And this isn't just the GM search. It's basically the entire hot stove season. Free agent signings, trade talks, anything concerned with the budget. How can one report on things like this?

I'm from upstate New York, and in that area Syracuse basketball is huge. The local writers there are terrific and really know the team inside out. But their style of reporting is to write about things after the fact. They will never speculate on a recruit until he has signed. They won't report progress on an injury until the team issues a statement. They report what has happened, officially. No progress reports, no speculation, nothing is known until the event is done.

I would guess that's the other side of spectrum. Would be interested to hear from the journalists.


Grand Central Contributor
Posted


I mean, maybe I'm just too analytical to be a good sports fan. It's all entertainment, and that includes all the 'who will sign where?!?' the 'lolmets' stuff. the coverage of the GM search. It's meant to illicit a reaction and engagement. It may be a little bit above the nonsense takes of sports radio, but only barely. The GM candidate I like is better than the GM candidate you like and the team is stupid to consider this or that.

It's all just an extension of 'rah rah my team is better than yours'. A lot of what annoys me about LolMets coverage is that we're all supposed to be on the same side. It's maybe the only thing I envy about being a Yankees fans, the blind loyalty stuff. Ultimately, even if you think your team did something really stupid, you still want that stupid thing to work out. I want Jay Bruce to hit 45 home runs next season splitting time playing hopefully not too defense at first base and RF.

So this nonsense by Sherman/Puma/others is just that. Can you believe the Mets didn't even talk to _this guy_ or _that guy_?

There are two types of 'journalism' if you want to call it that. There's this kind, the entertainment kind, the talking and opining about what is happening kind. And then there's the digging stuff. The uncovering of facts. That's what's lacking from sports/the Mets. It really feels like we're going off that one quote on the GM search. And granted, we won't hear more from the team necessarily, but that's what reporting is right? digging for it? Once some of these candidates are dismissed maybe we can get one of them to talk?

Another example is the Cespedes surgery. There are two surgeries but one recovery period and everyone's just re-printing press releases. No one's asking if that recovery time is total or from the second surgery, and what the intricacies of that are. No one asked which foot was first (And I was correct in my assumption that it was be his right) and if the order mattered. I was ridiculed by supposed reporter Matt Ehalt for asking for this clarification. (he's aggressively dismissive of people on Twitter and actively searches his names to get into fights..)

I'm good with anonymous sources, they're necessary, but if you're going to use them you need to tell me why I should believe their opinion. Also, when you say "according to sources" instead of something like "Someone I spoke to within the Mets organization" it's pretty obvious you just mean the other reports that are out there that you're just piggybacking on. You haven't confirmed that tidbit.

Sherman floats a ridiculous theory at the end of the piece, completely unsourced and just out of his own head. That's not journalism. He suggests that the search might be rigged, and hits LOLMets narrative points about the Dodgers.

And wtf is this? This is the climax of his piece. This is the point he's trying to hammer home?

Also, it is worth remembering that strawberries, pickles and whiskey all are delicious, but that doesn’t mean they go well together. Perhaps a gifted chef could effectively blend them.


Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket
Guests
Posted


I'll say it for the millionth time, this is a great article and Sherman is a triple threat: He's a good reporter, an insightful columnist and a good writer. This column in particular relays facts and raises questions based on them, that's what a good reporter/columnist ought to do.

The most important questions the Mets should be asking in their interview process for a new general manager are to themselves.

Are they sure they know what they are offering?

Are they sure they know what they want?


This is exactly what the debate to this point has been.

The Mets are nearing conclusion of a first wave of interviews to find a successor to Sandy Alderson and are expected to pare to three-ish candidates for a second round.


Facts.

While not commenting publicly, what the Mets want circulated is that they are unified in this process and that the person who emerges will have autonomy.


Now to Ceetar this sounds as though the writer made this up but I can guarantee you the descriptor what the Mets want circulated is off-the-record/background from someone in the org who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Were someone on the record what do you suppose they would say? "We are united on this and our new kleader will have autonomy." There is nothing at all outrageous on this.

But saying this does not make it true. Many qualified candidates refused interviews because they do not believe it is true.

Facts.


Mets ownership has promised autonomy before, but no one has ever left a Mets front-office job saying the head of baseball operations actually has unfettered power.


True.

Instead, they describe a situation in which, at best, the recommendations of the baseball head are followed but not until — regardless of the size of the issue — both owners are consulted (usually separately).


True.

As one former employee said, “Those are not two- or five-minute phone calls.”


Are you doubting this?

Translation: Those in charge get worn down and use a lot of the workday clock with this setup.


A reasonable conclusion based on the presented facts.

And this job search is not going to convince the industry that a new hire will have autonomy.

A reasonable speculation based on facts

Remember what Jeff Wilpon said on the final day of the regular season, that it would be his advice to retain manager Mickey Callaway and the acting GM triumvirate of Omar Minaya, J.P. Ricciardi and John Ricco, but that the ultimate decision would rest with the new GM?


You could look it up. It's hyperlinked for christ's sake.

Really?

What candidate is going to make his first significant act dismissing people whom the owner already has said he wants back?


Is this not a reasonable question?

And Ricciardi and especially Minaya have been feeding candidates for this process.


Fact.

Would they really be proposing those who would dismiss them?

Reasonable speculation based on above fact.

Plus, Ricco has joined Jeff Wilpon to do the initial interviews.

Fact.
Ricco has stood out over the years for putting the Mets first.

Fact.
Still, is he going to recommend the hiring of someone who wants to fire him?

So what kind of person would accept this job?


Again, reasonable speculation based on the facts. What is wrong with this?

In the first round, the Mets have gone pupu platter — not sure, for example, you get much different than Brewers 66-year-old senior adviser Doug Melvin and Rays 35-year-old senior VP of baseball operations Chaim Bloom.


Facts.


Conversely, upon dismissing GM Bobby Evans, Giants president Larry Baer said the team would pursue an analytically strong “Next Gen” GM. It has focused their search in a familiar way; they were run old-school under Evans and Brian Sabean and will go 180 degrees now.

'
Facts.

But what is 180 degrees for the Mets?


Reasonable speculation based on facts.

Fred Wilpon feels they got too analytical under Alderson — a sentiment not shared in the industry
.

Fact.

But how does being too analytical jibe with what Jeff said in that end-of-year media briefing, that Alderson recommended not enlarging one of the smallest analytic departments in the majors? How can you be too analytical and yet have a tiny analytics department?


Reasonable followup questions based on facts.

And, by the way, don’t you think some good candidates noticed that Jeff put this on Alderson’s plate and also said his regime did not want to spend heavily on free agents?

Speculation based on fact.

Lack of appreciation/accountability from ownership also is not going to draw the best and brightest.


Opinion but a reasonable one.
Alderson brought stability and a strong public face at the worst of times for these owners (think Madoff), steered the Mets to an NL title, did not leave the cupboards bare of talent and — for goodness’ sake — is battling cancer. Do you think this ingratitude is not a talking point within the game?


One needs to be willfully ignorant not to reach the same conclusion.

So is the disconnect of what the Mets want and how they seem to be getting there, with Minaya and Terry Collins offering the old-school whispers Fred longs to hear while Ricco and Jeff canvass a wider field during interviews. What will emerge?

It could be this is a rigged event and that Fred decided months ago Cardinals director of player development Gary LaRocque is getting the job
.

Speculation

He checks all of Fred’s boxes for comfort: Worked for the Dodgers, has a relationship with Sandy Koufax, worked for the Mets, speaks the language of old-timey player development.


Facts.

You know what he has never done? I asked four prominent agents, and all said Larocque was not part of the Cardinals unit that negotiated contracts. I asked a half-dozen baseball ops folks who have done trades with the Cardinals, and none said LaRocque was ever part of that process. Bloom and Melvin, for example — despite their disparity in age and background — both have been instrumental in signings and trades.


Reporting.

I guess this is where — if the Mets go with LaRocque — they could sell Minaya, Ricciardi and Ricco, since each has served as a GM or interim GM. The Mets love to win the press conference, and I could see them trying to sell a Dream Team of Larocque on development, Minaya on international, Ricciardi on scouting, Ricco on administrative and some yet-to-be-named young analytic whiz kid. Of course, at the end of the year, Jeff Wilpon mentioned, while wanting to keep the three-headed GMs for support, that the trio were key advisers for the team’s return to awfulness.


This makes complete sense given what we know about the search and the recent and distant histories of Fred and Jeff.

Also, it is worth remembering that strawberries, pickles and whiskey all are delicious, but that doesn’t mean they go well together. Perhaps a gifted chef could effectively blend them.

Does anyone sense the Mets have such gifted chefs leading this search?


Do you really not understand the central theme of this piece? You're the idiot if so.


Grand Central Contributor
Posted


I can't go piece by piece with this, it's too much. A lot of what you wrote as 'fact' is mostly meaningless. fact, yes, but
like "And Ricciardi and especially Minaya have been feeding candidates for this process."

well yeah, that's how it works, you get your employees to feed you names. They've been good names, something he basically 'confirms' with his pupu platter comment (Joel, please eat before you write next time)

See, the Giants do the same thing: "While Sabean will be heavily involved in the hiring and interview process, I don’t expect him to have a big role in the front office moving forward."

Here, let's take this.

Conversely, upon dismissing GM Bobby Evans, Giants president Larry Baer said the team would pursue an analytically strong “Next Gen” GM. It has focused their search in a familiar way; they were run old-school under Evans and Brian Sabean and will go 180 degrees now.


This seems a lot more of a hedge to me. Here's the full 'next-gen' quote.

"I think we're looking for someone who's sort of a 'next-gen' general manager, if you will. Somebody who's going to be head of baseball ops," Baer said. " ... People will say 'new school vs. old school,' people will say 'analytics vs. scouting,' and I think that the new, next-generation general manager is able to do both, and will bring both."


That's 180? I think Sherman should brush up on his math.


Read the Giants GM search and it's literally the exact same stuff. It's the same candidates in a lot of cases (though less leaks there). some of the same snubs.

From Chris Haft's article, you've even got a LOLGiants fascination with another team

Due to Sabean's background in the Yankees' player personnel department, the Giants have long been viewed as a haven for members of that organization seeking a job. The Yankees' lone conceivable candidate for the Giants' opening would be Damon Oppenheimer, New York's vice president and director of amateur scouting.


You can find similar quotes about decision making. The new hire would still report to Baer but have autonomy over baseball operations. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that teams need to hire a president AND a GM for a bigger chain of command but that there are too many people involved in the decisions and it takes too long to get sign off to make them.

Also the Giants have already asserted that the manager is returning, and even Evans is just being reassigned within the organization. (Something akin to what Sherman is asserting is bad that Terry Collins can still whisper in Fred's ear or whatever)

I mean, if they hire a dud that hate analytics and they don't advance that cause, I'll be pissed for sure, but based on what's out there I'm not particularly worried they're going to hire that Cardinals guy Sherman's Grassy Knolling at this juncture.


Posted


John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
Sherman isn't a baseball insider, he's an idiot.


He tells you more about the Mets than you realize.

All the post contains is unsourced opinions
.

Actually it is full of verifiable facts, loaded with context and perspective, and offers an informed opinion based on them.


By "baseball insiders", I meant Sherman's sources, not Sherman himself.


Posted


I'll say it for the millionth time, this is a great article and Sherman is a triple threat: He's a good reporter, an insightful columnist and a good writer. This column in particular relays facts and raises questions based on them, that's what a good reporter/columnist ought to do.

The most important questions the Mets should be asking in their interview process for a new general manager are to themselves.

Are they sure they know what they are offering?

Are they sure they know what they want?


This is exactly what the debate to this point has been.

The Mets are nearing conclusion of a first wave of interviews to find a successor to Sandy Alderson and are expected to pare to three-ish candidates for a second round.


Facts.

While not commenting publicly, what the Mets want circulated is that they are unified in this process and that the person who emerges will have autonomy.


Now to Ceetar this sounds as though the writer made this up but I can guarantee you the descriptor what the Mets want circulated is off-the-record/background from someone in the org who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Were someone on the record what do you suppose they would say? "We are united on this and our new kleader will have autonomy." There is nothing at all outrageous on this.

But saying this does not make it true. Many qualified candidates refused interviews because they do not believe it is true.

Facts.


Mets ownership has promised autonomy before, but no one has ever left a Mets front-office job saying the head of baseball operations actually has unfettered power.


True.

Instead, they describe a situation in which, at best, the recommendations of the baseball head are followed but not until — regardless of the size of the issue — both owners are consulted (usually separately).


True.

As one former employee said, “Those are not two- or five-minute phone calls.”


Are you doubting this?

Translation: Those in charge get worn down and use a lot of the workday clock with this setup.


A reasonable conclusion based on the presented facts.

And this job search is not going to convince the industry that a new hire will have autonomy.

A reasonable speculation based on facts

Remember what Jeff Wilpon said on the final day of the regular season, that it would be his advice to retain manager Mickey Callaway and the acting GM triumvirate of Omar Minaya, J.P. Ricciardi and John Ricco, but that the ultimate decision would rest with the new GM?


You could look it up. It's hyperlinked for christ's sake.

Really?

What candidate is going to make his first significant act dismissing people whom the owner already has said he wants back?


Is this not a reasonable question?

And Ricciardi and especially Minaya have been feeding candidates for this process.


Fact.

Would they really be proposing those who would dismiss them?

Reasonable speculation based on above fact.

Plus, Ricco has joined Jeff Wilpon to do the initial interviews.

Fact.
Ricco has stood out over the years for putting the Mets first.

Fact.
Still, is he going to recommend the hiring of someone who wants to fire him?

So what kind of person would accept this job?


Again, reasonable speculation based on the facts. What is wrong with this?

In the first round, the Mets have gone pupu platter — not sure, for example, you get much different than Brewers 66-year-old senior adviser Doug Melvin and Rays 35-year-old senior VP of baseball operations Chaim Bloom.


Facts.


Conversely, upon dismissing GM Bobby Evans, Giants president Larry Baer said the team would pursue an analytically strong “Next Gen” GM. It has focused their search in a familiar way; they were run old-school under Evans and Brian Sabean and will go 180 degrees now.

'
Facts.

But what is 180 degrees for the Mets?


Reasonable speculation based on facts.

Fred Wilpon feels they got too analytical under Alderson — a sentiment not shared in the industry
.

Fact.

But how does being too analytical jibe with what Jeff said in that end-of-year media briefing, that Alderson recommended not enlarging one of the smallest analytic departments in the majors? How can you be too analytical and yet have a tiny analytics department?


Reasonable followup questions based on facts.

And, by the way, don’t you think some good candidates noticed that Jeff put this on Alderson’s plate and also said his regime did not want to spend heavily on free agents?

Speculation based on fact.

Lack of appreciation/accountability from ownership also is not going to draw the best and brightest.


Opinion but a reasonable one.
Alderson brought stability and a strong public face at the worst of times for these owners (think Madoff), steered the Mets to an NL title, did not leave the cupboards bare of talent and — for goodness’ sake — is battling cancer. Do you think this ingratitude is not a talking point within the game?


One needs to be willfully ignorant not to reach the same conclusion.

So is the disconnect of what the Mets want and how they seem to be getting there, with Minaya and Terry Collins offering the old-school whispers Fred longs to hear while Ricco and Jeff canvass a wider field during interviews. What will emerge?

It could be this is a rigged event and that Fred decided months ago Cardinals director of player development Gary LaRocque is getting the job
.

Speculation

He checks all of Fred’s boxes for comfort: Worked for the Dodgers, has a relationship with Sandy Koufax, worked for the Mets, speaks the language of old-timey player development.


Facts.

You know what he has never done? I asked four prominent agents, and all said Larocque was not part of the Cardinals unit that negotiated contracts. I asked a half-dozen baseball ops folks who have done trades with the Cardinals, and none said LaRocque was ever part of that process. Bloom and Melvin, for example — despite their disparity in age and background — both have been instrumental in signings and trades.


Reporting.

I guess this is where — if the Mets go with LaRocque — they could sell Minaya, Ricciardi and Ricco, since each has served as a GM or interim GM. The Mets love to win the press conference, and I could see them trying to sell a Dream Team of Larocque on development, Minaya on international, Ricciardi on scouting, Ricco on administrative and some yet-to-be-named young analytic whiz kid. Of course, at the end of the year, Jeff Wilpon mentioned, while wanting to keep the three-headed GMs for support, that the trio were key advisers for the team’s return to awfulness.


This makes complete sense given what we know about the search and the recent and distant histories of Fred and Jeff.

Also, it is worth remembering that strawberries, pickles and whiskey all are delicious, but that doesn’t mean they go well together. Perhaps a gifted chef could effectively blend them.

Does anyone sense the Mets have such gifted chefs leading this search?


Do you really not understand the central theme of this piece? You're the idiot if so.


Nicely done. And it makes you want to tear your hair out when you go to the trouble of doing this and your counterpart says he doesn’t have time to go through the whole thing. Infuriating.

For what it’s worth Kristie Ackert had an article in the News that said basically the same thing. And the DN has a partnership with SNY and tend to go easy on the Wilpons.

I get the unnamed source criticism and I get that for some reason ceetar hates Sherman, but when everyone is basically saying the same thing....

And don’t think people haven’t noticed that these “bad journalism” complaints come out only when the article opposes the critic’s point of view.


Grand Central Contributor
Posted


I said I didn't have time to respond piecemeal. it confuses the point.

Everyone was saying the Mets were doing DAvid Wright wrong, despite him saying teh opposite, and saying it literally pained him to stand on the field. So excuse me if I don't treat aggregation of the same story as confirmation of the story. I'm hardly alone in thinking Sherman is a hack.

And literally these are the exact same story lines the Giants are having. So it's hard to believe in some LOLMets thing.

here, fine. Give me ONE candidate that has been cited as turning down an offer to interview with the Mets (not one that's just no on their radar) that's interviewing for another GM job. Find me the person that's actually saying "I want to be a GM, just not for the Mets"

Again, a lot of people running with one or two anon quotes and talking about it does make that quote more true. One of the tricks you can use is to see if they elaborate at all, or they just repeat what was cited.

Regardless, nothing about what Sherman wrote means the Mets are doomed or 'doing it wrong', as if a random writer knows what the right way to run a front office is. There's no 'right way' and half the teams in baseball disagree.


Posted


There's certainly something impolitic — if you're the assistant GM for the Astros or head of scouting and development for the Twins and some writer asks if you'd be interested in the Mets job if you were offered it — in saying, "Would I?! Fuck, YES!"

If the Mets haven't actually called, you'd be poisoning the well with your own bosses, and if they had, you'd be more circumspect so as not to compromise your status with either team and the folks you don't even know yet who you'll be working for next year.

That said, there's certainly a solid argument for the management to get on the same page as far as organizational structure before undertaking the search in earnest. But often, and organization will tailor that to the person, too, and try and reconcile their vision with his.


Posted


I was giving this some thought. Is it telling that they are looking at candidates from smaller market teams? Melvin is from the Brewers, Bloom is from Tampa. Gary LaRoque is from the Cardinals, and they are at least top ten. But the Mets are not entertaining candidates from any of the big hitters. Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs. Now, there could be a million different reasons for this. But I wonder if the Wilpons aren't already telegraphing their unwillingness to spend going forward.


Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Guests
Posted


Dave Littlefield, who's got a fantastic Wikipedia page, was interviewed today.


Posted


He seems...uninspiring.

Don’t know anything about him. (And judging from his wiki, neither does anyone else). Maybe he’s secretly an analytical genius.


Posted


Centerfield wrote:
But the Mets are not entertaining candidates from any of the big hitters. Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs. Now, there could be a million different reasons for this.

Ng worked for L.A. before joining the MLB office.

Later


Posted (edited)


Ceetar wrote:
There are others, i think they're doing more this week and I can't tell if the rumors of a "candidate we don't know" were subsequently leaked or not.


The free agent fishing season starts when the World Series ends.
They can't do diddley squat (no pictures of Bo Diddley, please) without a GM.
They'd better make a decision quickly, or it will be an off season of frustration as free agents sign elsewhere.


Later


Edited by Guest
Grand Central Contributor
Posted


MFS62 wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
There are others, i think they're doing more this week and I can't tell if the rumors of a "candidate we don't know" were subsequently leaked or not.


The free agent fishing season starts when the World Series ends.
They can't do diddley squat (no pictures of Bo Diddley, please) without a GM.
They'd better make a decision quickly, or it will be an off season of frustration as free agents sign elsewhere.
Later


7 days after the WS actually.

They've got people to reach out. It's not like Machado's going to sign instantly, especially not if the Mets reach out and express potential interest. bidding wars and all that.


Posted


Benjamin Grimm wrote:
They can do both diddly and squat. They still have the acting triumvirate in place.

Comforting.
And they probably will.
Later


Posted


According to the New York Post, it won't be Gary LaRocque and it won't be De Jon Watson.

Mets narrowing down GM search as 2nd interviews set to begin

Candidates still in the running are Doug Melvin, Kim Ng, Chaim Bloom, Brodie Van Wagenen and Dave Littlefield.

The Mets’ plan is to make each finalist for the general manager’s job available to the media after his or her second interview. But the team is not planning to announce the list of finalists all at once.


The Mets told The Post that they consider Dave Littlefield a “fringe” candidate for general manager at this point. It’s unclear if if he has officially been eliminated from the search.


Posted


In the Daily News, Kristie Ackert includes agent Casey Close as one of the remaining candidates. Also says that Doug Melvin isn't as "old school" as we may think.

Doug Melvin appears to be the ideal GM candidate to bridge the old-school vs. new-school divide within the Mets

But don’t be fooled; Melvin isn’t just a recycled GM or an old-school baseball guy, according to some who worked closely with him in Milwaukee.

“Doug is a fantastic human being and baseball mind,” one young Brewers’ colleague said on the condition of anonymity. “He’s patient. He’s a great listener. He galvanizes the whole group.

“I think he has much more of an understanding and appreciation for analytics than (the) public gives him credit for,” he continued. “I think it would be the best thing for the Mets right now, because it sounds like they need leadership and a presence.”


Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Guests
Posted (edited)


I still think Brodie Van Wagenen is a made-up name. Like, he's Jeffy's "Art Vandelay."


Edited by Guest
Posted


Centerfield wrote:
That Ackert piece reads like a commercial for Melvin.

I think Fred may have already picked his old guy.


Maybe he lit up the room the way that Art Howe did.


Posted


Centerfield wrote:
That Ackert piece reads like a commercial for Melvin.
I think Fred may have already picked his old guy.


[tweet]https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1053622608950894595[/tweet]

Young guy with an analytic background, woman to show forward thinking, two agents to show non-traditional candidates...
"we saw a lot of great people but with Doug we got the best of all worlds."


Posted


bmfc1 wrote:
That Ackert piece reads like a commercial for Melvin.
I think Fred may have already picked his old guy.


[tweet]https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1053622608950894595[/tweet]

Young guy with an analytic background, woman to show forward thinking, two agents to show non-traditional candidates...
"we saw a lot of great people but with Doug we got the best of all worlds."


Raves for Doug Melvin:

*Not as old school as you think! Very proficient with email!

*Hilarious. Tells the best jokes! But don’t pull his finger!

*Voted top ten in MLB of “Guys who still have moustaches”.

*Definitely alive.


Guest
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