This cannot go on much longer.

[Mex17]

It's January 20th for Pete's sake, and so many guys are still out there, including most of the top ones. I understand that this new generation of executives think differently and are effectively (without colluding with one another) causing a market correction, but at some point you have to sign people and get ready for Spring Training and the season.

Either there is going to be an explosion of news really soon or a lot of major league caliber players who have baseball left in them are going to be applying to their local Wal-Marts for jobs.

And, on a side note, I can easily see this market correction leading to big-time labor strife down the road. If sabermetric inclined GMs are now not willing to pay for the decline years of players, then the players should then demand that they get arbitration and free agency earlier in their careers. Are the owners going to be willing to move on that, and what will the players have to give up on order to get it? Pace of play concessions maybe?

Edited January 20, 2018 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

It's a good year to try some good old collusion. Correct the market this winter because all the big prizes are hitting free agency next winter.

[Mex17]

Edgy MD wrote: It's a good year to try some good old collusion. Correct the market this winter because all the big prizes are hitting free agency next winter.

But if the MLBPA attempts and/or succeeds in having this labeled as collusion, I will not be a very happy camper.

[Edgy MD]

Well, I'm only half serious, but I certainly object to all the ways the league puts artificial restraints on the market. Tony Clark's reign as MLBPA president hasn't impressed me so far, and if he can score one against the suits, I'm all for it.

[nymr83]

teams getting smarter isn't collusion and i have a feeling there'll be no talk like this next year when the Yankees/Dodgers have "reset" their luxury taxes and handed 300 million contracts to machado and harper

[Zvon]

Mex17 wrote: It's January 20th for Pete's sake, and so many guys are still out there, including most of the top ones. I understand that this new generation of executives think differently and are effectively (without colluding with one another) causing a market correction, but at some point you have to sign people and get ready for Spring Training and the season. Either there is going to be an explosion of news really soon or a lot of major league caliber players who have baseball left in them are going to be applying to their local Wal-Marts for jobs. And, on a side note, I can easily see this market correction leading to big-time labor strife down the road. If sabermetric inclined GMs are now not willing to pay for the decline years of players, then the players should then demand that they get arbitration and free agency earlier in their careers. Are the owners going to be willing to move on that, and what will the players have to give up on order to get it? Pace of play concessions maybe?

Mex17 wrote: It's a good year to try some good old collusion. Correct the market this winter because all the big prizes are hitting free agency next winter. But if the MLBPA attempts and/or succeeds in having this labeled as collusion, I will not be a very happy camper.

Great posts.

I don't care what either side does. If ticket prices go up faster than the rate of inflation, I will not be going to games anymore. As it is, as a form of protest, I've only been to a handful (maybe two handfuls) over the last decade. I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do.
MLB.tv does me just fine for $99 bucks a season (I'm grandfathered in at that rate for a bit because I was an early subscriber).

Like David Ortiz says: Every teeng, every gaane!

[seawolf17]

Zvon wrote: I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do.

Wait, really? Not a single game since 2008?

[Zvon]

seawolf17 wrote: Zvon wrote: I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do. Wait, really? Not a single game since 2008?

Nope. I see the Mets play in Philly. And down in Washington a few times. Both beautiful stadiums. Citi is too, no doubt from what I see.

I won't give the Wilpons a cent of my $ aside from the caps and the occasional jacket, which might go to MLB and MLBPA anyway for all I know. When the Wilpons are gone, I will celebrate by getting a room in NYC and going to ten freakin games straight! It's just too expensive for me to bear with the way they run our beloved team. My brother took his family of 4 to a game at Citi and it cost him $400 all told, with food and beers and sodas and parking and gas and tolls ( he lives down here in SJ too) and alladat.

Hey, I put my money where my mouth is.

Look what spellcheck gives you for Wilpons. haha.

[seawolf17]

Zvon wrote: Zvon wrote: I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do. Wait, really? Not a single game since 2008? Nope. I see the Mets play in Philly. And down in Washington a few times. Both beautiful stadiums. Citi is too, no doubt from what I see. I won't give the Wilpons a cent of my $ aside from the caps and the occasional jacket, which might go to MLB and MLBPA anyway for all I know. When the Wilpons are gone, I will celebrate by getting a room in NYC and going to ten freakin games straight! It's just too expensive for me to bear with the way they run our beloved team. My brother took his family of 4 to a game at Citi and it cost him $400 all told, with food and beers and sodas and parking and gas and tolls ( he lives down here in SJ too) and alladat. Hey, I put my money where my mouth is. Look what spellcheck gives you for Wilpons. haha.

Nice. Well done.

[Zvon]

seawolf17 wrote: Nice. Well done.

Thank you sir.

[Lefty Specialist]

Edgy MD wrote: It's a good year to try some good old collusion.

Please, we've got enough collusion already.

[Mex17]

I just checked ESPN just to see if anybody signed anybody today. Nothing but crickets.

Can you imagine J.D. Martinez having to go to work and have to say "Do you want fries with that?" following a 45 HR, 1.107 OPS season at age 29?

[nymr83]

Do you work for the union? Why do you care how latw they sign or what they get?

I am happy if more good players get priced down for Freddie Coupon

[Edgy MD]

Of 166 free agents, 38 have been signed.

Taking a random top 20 from CBS sports,12 of the top 20 free agents remain unsigned, including eight of the top 10. Those numbers go up to 13 and nine (!) if you don't count Shohei Ohtani.

[Guest 41Forever]

I don’t think a market correction is necessarily a sign of collusion. I also think agents have a hand in draggging things out. I wonder how many of the remaining unsigned guys are Boras clients.

[Edgy MD]

I'm not really arguing collusion, but I don't think the majority of guys left unsigned is necessarily a real and spontaneous market correction.

[Mex17]

Nymr83 wrote: Do you work for the union? Why do you care how latw they sign or what they get?

Of 166 free agents, 38 have been signed.

@Nymr83: You don't think that this is worthy of a general discussion on a baseball board?

[ashie62]

I just want 2B General Dozier.

Interweb says Red Sox are offering 125 million to J.D. Martinez

[Mex17]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not really arguing collusion, but I don't think the majority of guys left unsigned is necessarily a real and spontaneous market correction.

Seems to me that it would have to be one or the other. Either executives specifically agreed amongst themselves not to sign each others players or they did not.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, but I'm certainly humble enough to acknowledge that I don't know.

There's a not necessarily on both sides of the question.

[Frayed Knot]

Never a bad time to toss some Paul Carrack into the mix

[youtube:1nsc0bbt]Vo_GMMLULXw[/youtube:1nsc0bbt]

[Frayed Knot]

Maybe the players are simply holding out for too much based on recents trends that they thought were sure to continue?

Joe Posnanski on mlb.com points out the most recent $150 mil or higher signings:

Dec 2011, Albert Pujols -- 10 years/$240 -- that one hasn't turned out well now has it?
Jan 2012, Prince Fielder -- 9/214 -- I assume Detroit/Texas got some financial relief when the injury ended his career, but the Tigers still paid chunk of the freight to make him go away only partway through the deal
Dec 2013, Robinson Cano -- 10/240 -- didn't start well. Is going better now but the now 35 y/o still has six seasons to go on his deal and his team hasn't sniffed the playoffs since he got there
Dec 2013, Jacoby Ellsbury -- 7/153 -- Yanx are wishing he'd just disappear
Dec 2015, Jason Heyward -- 8/184 -- not off to a good start, eh? At least (Moody Blues) Justin Heyward is going into the (R&R) HoF this year.
Jan 2016, Chris Davis -- 7/161


Not that this year's crop is necessarily expecting 150 million dollar deals (although who knows what Boras is whispering in their ears) but y'all know about the whole definition of insanity thing.

[nymr83]

This year's group can hardly expect 50 million. All the top guys have serious concerns and none play a premium position

[smg58]

Martinez at least is a Boras client. He is hoping for 6 and 150, but so far the Red Sox are standing firm at 5 and 125. After the damage done to Stephen Drew's career and earning potential when Boras rejected the QO and then refused to accept that one year was all Drew would get until the season was half over, Boras can only go so far with being stubborn and the league knows it.

I don't think it is a collusion. Given the talent in next year's free agent pool and the way the luxury tax rules are written, there is a tangible reason for the big spenders to get under the tax threshold. And that has suppressed the market, although I think smaller payroll teams are scrambling to re-assess their spending plans for the offseason now that players they assumed were out of their price range no longer appear to be so.

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: This year's group can hardly expect 50 million. All the top guys have serious concerns and none play a premium position

I bet if we were to dig up one of those early off-season prediction columns baseball writers seem to be required to write each year that there'd be projections of $100mil+ contracts for several of the still-unsigned dudes.
Not that that means they all should get those numbers, but judging from recent trends ... yadda yadda



At some point this winter there was a rumor that the Yanx had extended a $130-ish offer to Darvish (IIRC) although the Darvish camp quickly denied that was ever the case - so who knows.
But other than that there's been very little from the rumor mill even about which teams are talking (or NOT talking) to which players much less what kind of money they're talking about.

[Zvon]

Never a bad time to toss some Paul Carrack into the mix

Holy schma-0-ly!
I know Carrack from Squeeze and his subsequent solo work (two songs I absolutely love: Tempted/Squeeze & Button Off Of My Shirt/solo), but had no inkling that he sang How Long! Amazin'.

So I wiki'd him. He also did some time with ROXY MUSIC! And Mike & The Mechanics! I attended a Roger Waters/Radio K.A.O.S. concert and had the CD, so I knew he played on the disc and toured with Waters. But all this other stuff I just read......

BANG>>>ZOOM>>>BACK TO SCHOOL!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carrack

I could swear I've posted this here before.

1UAQpXahom4

[Mex17]

Maybe the players are simply holding out for too much based on recents trends that they thought were sure to continue? Joe Posnanski on mlb.com points out the most recent $150 mil or higher signings: Dec 2011, Albert Pujols -- 10 years/$240 -- that one hasn't turned out well now has it? Jan 2012, Prince Fielder -- 9/214 -- I assume Detroit/Texas got some financial relief when the injury ended his career, but the Tigers still paid chunk of the freight to make him go away only partway through the deal Dec 2013, Robinson Cano -- 10/240 -- didn't start well. Is going better now but the now 35 y/o still has six seasons to go on his deal and his team hasn't sniffed the playoffs since he got there Dec 2013, Jacoby Ellsbury -- 7/153 -- Yanx are wishing he'd just disappear Dec 2015, Jason Heyward -- 8/184 -- not off to a good start, eh? At least (Moody Blues) Justin Heyward is going into the (R&R) HoF this year. Jan 2016, Chris Davis -- 7/161 Not that this year's crop is necessarily expecting 150 million dollar deals (although who knows what Boras is whispering in their ears) but y'all know about the whole definition of insanity thing.

This.

[Edgy MD]

I'm not too sure about the have serious concerns/none play premium positions thing.

I mean, sure, but Chris Davis, Prince Fielder, Jason Heyward ...

[Frayed Knot]

Rumor has the Brewers making an offer to Darvish -- something that might make a dent in the FA logjam -- although no word yet as to how much, how long, or even how true.

[Frayed Knot]

Virtually no movement on the remaining big FAs even though it's now Feb 1st and almost two weeks since this thread was started.
The player's union is getting anxious with Kensley Jansen mentioning the 'strike' word as a possible resort (I don't think they're anywhere near that point as a group at this time).
Also, Ken Davidoff talks today about "the hole in which the players have placed themselves after negotiating a highly unfavorable collective bargaining agreement."
Not quite sure what's so unfavorable about it since the FA and revenue sharing rules are pretty much unchanged from the last few agreements.

On the other hand, both Darvish and Hosmer are reportedly sitting on multiple $100+ offers but are waiting to see if better ones suddenly jump up via late interest from other clubs
and Hosmer is said to be insisting on something north of seven years ... all of which makes talks of collusion a bit tougher to sell.
Speculation then is that lesser FAs are waiting until the likes of Darvish & Hosmer 'set the market' before they start agreeing to anything.