Josh Harrison, He's Somebody Folks Talk About

[Edgy MD]

A name being bandied about. Plays second, plays third, hits at a consistent level that suggests the very soul of mediocrity, but may have some upside yet for the right team. Wears a fraying beard that suggests a bantamweight Dave Parker when the Bucs do throwback unis.

Will steal a base or two but isn't what you'd call a basestealer. Will get a walk or two but isn't what you'd call an on-base guy.

Ah, hell, I can think of four or five allegedly available secondbasemen I'd prefer, including Neil Walker. But Hairy has a $10+ million contract with two option years with buyouts. I can see him coming over in a deal along with the guy the Mets really want, perhaps McCutcheon or Cole. He'd be a Derek Bell in that sense.

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[Benjamin Grimm]

Do all Pirates caps have a brim with a flowery underside?

[Guest 41Forever]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Do all Pirates caps have a brim with a flowery underside?

That was from the All-Star Game.

This guy was an All-Star?

[Edgy MD]

I think that's his All-Star look.

And hey, he was a 2017 All-Star! That's not nothing!

[MFS62]

Caught the tail end of an SNY discussion about the MFYs going after the Pirates' ace pitcher. They mentioned a few prospects going to Pittsburgh, and then at the end they said the deal would be the prospects for the pitcher and Harrison.
It seems like he would be a welcomed addition to the Mets, but that SNY comment doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that the Mets will get him.

Later

[Centerfield]

As I mentioned in the other thread, pass.

[smg58]

A plus fielder at second base.

Hoping for a repeat of 2014 might be too much to ask for, but last year was pretty good.

Not sure I'm for trading while there are guys available who wouldn't cost players, but he'd be acceptable to me.

[Centerfield]

smg58 wrote: A plus fielder at second base. Hoping for a repeat of 2014 might be too much to ask for, but last year was pretty good. Not sure I'm for trading while there are guys available who wouldn't cost players, but he'd be acceptable to me.

Agreed that last year was "pretty good". .771 OPS. But the two years prior were awful. And yes, 2014 was terrific, but all of this comes out to a career OPS of .735.

He's expensive and costs players going back.

He is fast though, so there's that.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I kinda like him for his D and speed. Plus the Mets need a brother in the clubhouse.

[Guest cooby]

Oh please leave the pirates someone

[Edgy MD]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Plus the Mets need a brother in the clubhouse.

This is meaningful to management, isn't it? They'll have, like, seven Afro-Latin players, but if Smith doesn't make the team, there'll be no African-Americans. At least, not as they are currently comprised.

[nymr83]

I'd like to win baseball games not fill racial quotas.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Diverse teams perform better.

https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter

[bmfc1]

Per Ken Rosenthal in The Athletic, the Pirates wanted Nimmo in a McCutchen deal and the Mets declined. Rosenthal said that the Mets could use Nimmo "as the centerpiece of a deal for Pirates super-utility man Josh Harrison" but are considering Eduardo Nunez who is a free agent.

The two players are comparable multi-position threats. Nunez is 23 days older than Harrison. His career batting average is .282 to Harrison’s .281, and both have an identical career .735 OPS. If the Mets could sign Nunez for less than they would pay Harrison and still keep Nimmo, that seemingly would be a preferred option.

https://theathletic.com/213673/2018/01/16/rosenthal-mets-wouldnt-include-nimmo-in-deal-for-pirates-mccutchen/

[Edgy MD]

I read that. It's strange that Rosey doesn't tell us what the full package was.

It's the first hint I've had this offseason that he Mets retain some of the regard for Nimmo that I do, so I'm kinda chuffed.

[nymr83]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Diverse teams perform better. https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter

This had zero to do with sports and I don't see hiw it would be at all applicable to hitting a ball.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

It doesn't but I thought it was interesting stuff pointed out. I used to know one of the authors of that study

[Edgy MD]

I totally see it. Rejecting received wisdom, analysing biases, innovation. All that is part of organizational culture and baseball performance.

Diversity isn't the last word, certainly, but it also speaks to marketability. But when Chin-lung Hu hits .050, well, that's gonna precipitate a release no matter what box you check on the census.

It's just a thing, but its a thing worth considering. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets perhaps over-consider it. Nor would I be shocked if there was an unwritten rule out there about carrying at least one African-American on the roster and on the coaching staff.

[G-Fafif]

Ken Rosenthal on the Athletic reports Mets refused to include Nimmo, who Buccos wanted for McCutchen.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: It's the first hint I've had this offseason that he Mets retain some of the regard for Nimmo that I do, so I'm kinda chuffed.

That is rather intriguing.

[Frayed Knot]

Consider also that you'd be giving up six years of Nimmo for one of McCutcheon.

[Centerfield]

Nimmo? I like what I see too but I think you have to make that trade.

[Centerfield]

And now they’re saying that the Mets think Nimmo can be the centerpiece of a Harrison trade.

Makes all the sense in the world. Refuse to include him for McCutchen. Trade him for the worse player.

Beyond stupid if true.

[Edgy MD]

We don't know what the full package was in the proposed McCutcheon deal. Nor really for this alleged deal.

[Centerfield]

Which is why there is the “if true” qualifier.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Like McCutchen. Loved him, but still kinda like him.

Are you sure he's definitively the better player at this point than the guy who still gives you decent offense, plays 4-5 positions (including 2 need positions for our squad) and gives you speed/defense at all of them?

[Ceetar]

I'd rather give Nimmo a 2B glove.

[Centerfield]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Like McCutchen. Loved him, but still kinda like him. Are you sure he's definitively the better player at this point than the guy who still gives you decent offense, plays 4-5 positions (including 2 need positions for our squad) and gives you speed/defense at all of them?

I don't know that for a fact. Primarily because I have no idea how to really gauge defense, or figure out the relative value of defense like they do with WAR. I do tend to think WAR overvalues defense, but I don't have any science behind that. I also don't watch these guys play so I have no idea of gauging who is still likely to perform and who is losing their skills.

I do know the following:

*McCutchen is the much better hitter. It's not even close. Career .866 OPS versus career .735. McCutchen's 2016 was evidence that he was "shot". His OPS that year was .766. In Harrison's good year (2017) his OPS was .771. 2015 and 2016 are so ugly you don't even want to look. Neil Walker, who would cost no prospects, has a .778 OPS. Harrison would even represent an offensive downgrade even from our in house options. Flores, Rivera, maybe even Phil Evans or Cheech could give you a low .700's OPS easily, and are just as likely (if not more) to give you a high 700's OPS. Sure, Harrison brings defense and versatility, but at what cost?

*McCutchen also brings speed. 11 stolen bases versus 12 for Harrison.

*Harrison is also "old". Not really. But for everyone who says McCutchen is risky because you don't get speed guys when they're old, Harrison is 9 months younger than McCutchen.

*Harrison is not cheap. The option years are nice because they give flexibility, but $10 million+ for his production?

I like Nimmo a lot. I would have given him up for a guy with upside like McCutchen. I wouldn't touch him for a guy like Harrison.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: I'd rather give Nimmo a 2B glove.

Ha. Really. Or even Obi-Juan. Didn't he used to play infield?

[Edgy MD]

I don't think WAR over-values or under-values defense, so much as mis-values it, as WAR was developed before the revolution in tracking technology that continues to evolve our understanding of defense.

One thing WAR (and her cousins, like fWAR) do mostly well is value defensive position. So while McCutchen is indeed the better bet with the bat, if you look at him as a leftfielder, he's several notches past a secondbaseman on the defensive spectrum, and that shaves off some of that difference. As does the general versatility. How much that shaves off is a point folks will differ on. And certainly folks will differ on how much to dock McCutchen when mentally plugging him into to center when his centering days seem objectively done.

Unfortunately, like McCutchen, Harrison's got one year of control left, so that's a factor when weighing sending Nimmo over for either of them.