Lets Make Some Fresh Memories of Omar Minaya

[Guest d'Kong76]

I know he just got a new contract but Sandy should just say
fuck it and quit.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: ... Minaya has worked in the industry since. he's still connected, still respected by more than just the Mets. He's not being hired to be GM. Sandy could literally take his advice and ignore it, but if he's got something to add, that seems likely, then sure.

Unless Fred starts ignoring Sandy's requests because Omar is whispering in his ear against it, at which point S + O becomes less than the sum of their parts and maybe not even as effective as Sandy was just relying the guys already in place.

And roughly every rich owner thinks they're smarter than they are.

That's been my biggest problem with Fred all along, that he lurches between wanting to hire guys to run things but then thinking that his own input is needed.
It becomes like the worst aspects of Steinbrenner only without the bluster or the budget.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Fred is 81. Eighty-one! I tell myself that Jeff is on my/Sandy's side because if I don't, I don't think I can pretend to have any faith in there being any vision whatsoever in the group.

I also tell myself that Sandy is smart enough to find a way around this.

[Centerfield]

Out of curiosity what moves do we know that are attributable to Fred’s meddling?

It’s hard for me to picture what moves he might be forcing without the dollars to back it up.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Basically everything that went wrong with the club except for the Leigh Casterine thing was Fred and not Jeff.

Soulless, out of touch stadium? Fred
Hiring of Livesley and Goldis to end-around Duquette? Fred
Prevented Sandy from moving on Collins? Fred
Fired McIlvane and hired Phillips? Fred
Fired Valentine but not Phillips? Fred
Invested with Madoff? Fred
Champion of Art Howe? Fred
Desirous of Tom Glavine? Fred
Carried water for Selig's minority-hiring initiative in purposefully grooming then hiring Omar? Fred
Gave Omar a 4-year contract *after* the 2008 season?! Fred
Somehow didn't fire Omar on the spot for Adam Rubin remark? Fred and Jeff
Pursuit of Kaz Matsui and odd decision to make him shortstop over Reyes? Fred
David Wright "not a superstar"? Fred
Reyes "Carl Crawford money" money remark? Fred
Proponent of Torborg? Fred

[Centerfield]

That’s a real parade of follies. I hope you’re right that this is all Fred and not Jeff. I don’t know how one would know, but I hope like hell that you are right.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm pretty sure the soulless stadium was at least a tag team eff n jeff production, if not more jeff than eff. Once you get past eff's Ebbetsian stylings, it might be all Jeff. Especially the moronic cavernous dimensions and that stupid Mexican border wall of an outfield fence.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Guest

[ashie62]

Ashie62 wrote: I see it as Minaya is the covering Dr. for Alderson. Sandy could relapse, have a bad chemo week/month and he is 70. Yeah, Minaya is preparing to replace Alderson. I like the concept. Study Omar. Omar, don't give Jeff W a hummer.

I see the risk of a front office clash but truly believe Omar will caddy for Alderson to better the chances for a full Sandy recovery..

Yeah, Fred ain't done yet.

Any thoughts on this?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

You better be wrong about Omar retaking the GM spot and I think you are. I don't believe Omar would want that either. That's also why I see Ceetars argument that the existing FO sees Omar as some kind of threat to their ascension empty. They are worried that having a parallel chain of command directly to the owner can and probably will interfere with their work.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: You better be wrong about Omar retaking the GM spot and I think you are. I don't believe Omar would want that either. That's also why I see Ceetars argument that the existing FO sees Omar as some kind of threat to their ascension empty. They are worried that having a parallel chain of command directly to the owner can and probably will interfere with their work.

Same difference really. They think Omar's opinion will be more listened to and respected than theirs. It's hard to take seriously a 'stupid' claim when it's so heavily vested in self-interest.


as for the stadium. I mean, I like it, and I don't think souless is quite fair, especially given the Bronx thing.

But uninspired. That pretty much covers everything the Wilpons do.

great choice: "a month of interviews with various scouting type folks, hiring the best one"

bold choice: "Picking someone far flung, from your Caribbean leagues, from Japan. Someone with a different outlook."

progressive choice: "Pick a woman or minority a little lower on the food choice and give her a shot"

uninspired choice: "Hire the okay guy that you already know and have a relationship with"

same with the stadium. They didn't break new ground. They didn't commission a grandiose representation of NYC. Even the supposed 'bridge motif' that is actually a nice idea is like bare bones. They just hired the HOK firm that does stadiums and said 'get us one' and like, checked a few of the optional add ons.

The Wilpons are people for whom 'amazing' is when Apple moves the headphone jack, or removes it. When Lexus changes the shade of blue on the car they drive. They're the type of people that put one of those 190 degree water spigots on the sinks in their buildings and think it's revolutionary.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Not the same difference

[ashie62]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Not the same difference

I appreciate the thought brought forth by your prior post re: Omar and the F.O and agree with your current post.

Thank you.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Sorry I got messed up with the quotng. I'm saying the reason the fo is upset by Omar isn't the personal motivations or ambitions of the individuals, primarily, but that a parallel chain of command could pervert their collective work.

We know Sandy is all about the process. If the process gets upset then it's not going to work.

This happens with the Wilpons all the time. Guys working at cross purposes, blurry chain of command, etc etc

[Centerfield]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Sorry I got messed up with the quotng. I'm saying the reason the fo is upset by Omar isn't the personal motivations or ambitions of the individuals, primarily, but that a parallel chain of command could pervert their collective work. We know Sandy is all about the process. If the process gets upset then it's not going to work. This happens with the Wilpons all the time. Guys working at cross purposes, blurry chain of command, etc etc

It’s like a page out of Trump’s playbook.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Sorry I got messed up with the quotng. I'm saying the reason the fo is upset by Omar isn't the personal motivations or ambitions of the individuals, primarily, but that a parallel chain of command could pervert their collective work. We know Sandy is all about the process. If the process gets upset then it's not going to work. This happens with the Wilpons all the time. Guys working at cross purposes, blurry chain of command, etc etc

Is it really a parallel chain of command though? Like, is everyone else collectively working together and presenting a decision to Sandy that ultimately decides and Omar's opinion will sit on his desk next to that and he'll have two things to look at?

or more likely, this is just another input. Sure, that may muddy the waters a bit, but ultimately it's still all on Sandy and I just don't buy that he's not okay with Omar there. So if Omar presents one suggestion and the rest of the front office generally is in support of another, and Sandy decides Omar's suggestion is the best option, that's going to be spun, via disgrunted quotes to reporters, as some sort of circumventing the process thing, when it's really just someone complaining that maybe they have a small percentage less personal power.

[Guest 41Forever]

I know there was some beefing about the stadium, and, to be fair, I've only been there once. But it's not a typical HOK cookie-cutter. New Comiskey was a typical HOK cookie-cutter. Love it or hate it, the Ebbets rotunda throwback is something unique. It's got the Home Run apple and the Shea Bridge.

The walls were a mistake, but they fixed them fairly quickly. They added the Hall of Fame, which looks pretty cool from the photos I've seen, and the murals of Casey and Tom -- and Gil, too? Having the scoreboard skyline from Shea was a nice touch.

I like it a heck of a lot better than the Death Star in the Bronx. Now, that's soulless!

The Wilpons have screwed up a lot of stuff, but I would not say the stadium is among them. Just my 2 cents.

I don't mind Omar there. We've said the farm system is a mess. Omar is supposedly a great scout and can evaluate talent. Sounds like he's a good fit for the needs we have.

[MFS62]

Sandy was a Marine. I don't think he will allow a twin chain of command. But the military model also includes the concept of a cadre of advisers without unit leadership responsibility. And I think that is the way Sandy will view, and use, Omar.

Later

[Ceetar]

the chief problems with the stadium are/were that they opened it undecorated and then decorated it in roughly the most unimaginative way because they're extremely dull people. Also that they chopped about 12k seats off because who needs cheap seats?

This was a mistake Yankee Stadium made too, and failure and the recession pretty much corrected it, but I imagine both owners were imagining the cheapest seat being 50-100+ with maybe a few thousand $20 seats thrown in just to appease the masses.

There also aren't enough escalators.

[nymr83]

The missing seats from Shea is definitely the #1 issue with Citi and at least in my mind it is not even particularly close with all the other little issues you could complain about. If the Wilpons, or a future owner, ever do decide to invest in a winner, there will be more than fifteen thousand fans missing from all those home games down the stretch.

[dgwphotography]

Ceetar wrote: the chief problems with the stadium are/were that they opened it undecorated and then decorated it in roughly the most unimaginative way because they're extremely dull people. Also that they chopped about 12k seats off because who needs cheap seats? This was a mistake Yankee Stadium made too, and failure and the recession pretty much corrected it, but I imagine both owners were imagining the cheapest seat being 50-100+ with maybe a few thousand $20 seats thrown in just to appease the masses. There also aren't enough escalators.

This - the Wilponzis figured they could lessen the supply, and be able to charge what they wanted with what they thought would be an increased demand. As a former member here once said, the stadium has great views, of the advertisements.

I also remember a story of Jeffrey either moving the signage along the front of the Promenade, or making it larger, where it affected the views from the front of the section. Everything about the Wilponzis is about maximizing every last cent, while only giving us the appearance of contending...

[Ceetar]

dgwphotography wrote: This - the Wilponzis figured they could lessen the supply, and be able to charge what they wanted with what they thought would be an increased demand. As a former member here once said, the stadium has great views, of the advertisements. I also remember a story of Jeffrey either moving the signage along the front of the Promenade, or making it larger, where it affected the views from the front of the section. Everything about the Wilponzis is about maximizing every last cent, while only giving us the appearance of contending...

I mean, that's true of every team. The Steinbrenners just maximize every last cent a little better, or timed their late 90s success with the success of the league and the economy and all that, and got out ahead of the recession. And their sketchy investment deals were of the legal kind. presumably.

The Promenade club is a joke, you have a window but you pretty much can't see the field/plate. But it's because of the camera wells I think. That club should probably be raised up about 3 steps worth and it'd be way better. Hell, if you want to be fun, raise it up a whole story, put a floor up above the promenade food court area, and make it a giant bar from which you can stand in front and watch the game.

[Guest 41Forever]

Smaller stadiums are the trend across the Major Leagues. Citi seats about 41,000 -- same as Comerica, Sun Trust, Miller, Minute Maid, Nationals Park. Great American and Petco are just a hair bigger.

There are a bunch that are smaller, too. The White Sox knocked their park down to 40,000. Target Field and PNC are both smaller. Heck, the Marlins Park, Kauffman, the Tropicana Dome, and Progressive Field all seat less than Fenway.

I think the thinking was that smaller parks would fill up faster, leading to more sellouts, leading to more people buying tickets in advance and not waiting until game day hoping to get a seat.

So while Citi's capacity might be a fair criticism, it's a criticism that should be applied league-wide and not just at the Wilpons. The MFYs bucked the trend. They also have the second-highest average ticket prices in the game, so I don't know if they are offering any cheap seats in that 50,000.

[nymr83]

So the Mets built a stadium the same size as those in much smaller markets, reinforcing the evidence that the Wilpons are not plabning to operate a big market team.

The criticism need not be applied league wide. Milwaukee and San Diego don't need a stadium as large as New York needs.

[Edgy MD]

Yes, scarcity marketing is an established principle of the marketing game. This combines with premium pricing and production of SRO overflow tickets to give teams exactly the sort of guaranteed base profitability that teams scientifically position themselves for.

Of course it works. Fight the antitrust exemption, man.

[Frayed Knot]

Jeff W. flat-out stated during one of the introductory CF press conferences that one of the reasons for the reduced capacity was that those last 10,000 or so seats are the most expensive to build yet yielded the least amount in return. I would have countered with a follow-up about whether such a strategy wasn't a bit short-sighted considering that they have two announcers who are deep in stories of their youth in the cheap seats and whether this risked either alienating the next generation of Howies and Garys, or maybe just never allowed them to develop in the first place. Not sure if anyone in attendance that day pursued that line of questioning.

And, yes, I think that both teams, the Mets coming off their 2008 success and the Yanx coming off their long string of successful years -- almost simultaneously with the two NJ-based football teams with their over-priced (and, in the case of the Jets, at least partially fraudulent) PSL strategies -- saw their new stadia with an extremely optimistic view of the revenues they were likely to generate particularly via the higher percentage of top-end seats which were partially created by a bit of artificial scarcity.
And then the recession hit which was complicated in the Mets case by the subsequent Madoff hit and a lot of rosy scenarios changed quickly after that.

[Centerfield]

I think the only scenario that had a lasting change for the worse was the Wilpons’ personal finances. The recession has been over for years.

All of baseball has been enjoying huge revenues and the NY teams are in the front of that pack.

The Mets are doing great. The Wilpons are the problem.

[ashie62]

I see zero Mets rumors & such on the interweb.

I feel like the owners have the cloak of invisibility.

I am very frustrated.

[Edgy MD]

There's been one player acquired by any of the 30 MLB teams all week.

As for rumors, well, I can make one up!

Hansel Robles for Brandon Drury! It's totally going to happen! Sources are buzzing!

[Guest 41Forever]

Edgy MD wrote: There's been one player acquired by any of the 30 MLB teams all week. As for rumors, well, I can make one up! Hansel Robles for Brandon Drury! It's totally going to happen! Sources are buzzing!

Well, that's better sourced than the Vaccaro column.

[Ceetar]

Ashie62 wrote: I see zero Mets rumors & such on the interweb. I feel like the owners have the cloak of invisibility. I am very frustrated.

then you're not looking. the Mets have been linked to a ton of players.