seawolf17

themetfairy wrote: I had to put up with shit in the supermarket this morning from a smug Phillies phan. Fuck this game! Screw that; kick them in the nuts. They're 6-6, with the worst pitching staff in the NL. Don't take that crap from them.

="Edgy DC":1thpo759]On deck batter has to get in position the moment the ball is in play.[/quote:1thpo759] True. And since so many of the mistakes were fundamentals today, that's part of the equation. But Beltran was at second base when the play started; it was a routine sac fly. Should Luis have been there? Probably, but it's more on Carlos than it is on Luis. Gwreck Apr 21 2009 09:47 PM I'm down with the benching of Murphy and Beltran tonight. Just really bad baserunning to go with Murphy's really bad fielding. Jeremy Reed could use a start. mario25 Apr 22 2009 05:02 AM I think it is time to make a switch in LF for awhile. Murphy is killing this team out there and he could use some time in Buffalo to learn the position. I think having Sheff out there with Tatis spelling him would be better right now and probably not to big of a dropoff in offense. The Mets cant continue to lose games like this after the last 2 summers. Murphy looks awful out there and throws the baseball to the wrong base alot. He needs some time to learn the position and the Mets cant afford him to learn on the fly and cost games. Nymr83 Apr 22 2009 06:16 AM ="mario25":2t0ajh2w]I think it is time to make a switch in LF for awhile. Murphy is killing this team out there and he could use some time in Buffalo to learn the position. I think having Sheff out there with Tatis spelling him would be better right now and probably not to big of a dropoff in offense. The Mets cant continue to lose games like this after the last 2 summers. Murphy looks awful out there and throws the baseball to the wrong base alot. He needs some time to learn the position and the Mets cant afford him to learn on the fly and cost games.[/quote:2t0ajh2w] Murphy is hitting pretty well right now, I'd keep him on the big club as long as that continued, but if he goes into a slump i wouldnt be against taking the opportunity to let him learn the position better in buffalo. meanwhile, let sheffield steal his ABs not Church's!! Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 07:03 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 22 2009 07:30 AM It's not like he didn't already get 32 games in the outfield last season (and aquit himself, let's remember, better than he has so far this year). Best candidates for a callup right now are Fernando (7 doubles) Martinez --- if you're ready for further controversy --- and Bobby Kielty, but he's hitting .231 and can't be slotted against lefties with Gary Sheffield and Fernando Tatis. Suddenly, the Mets bench is righty heavy. Benjamin Grimm Apr 22 2009 07:08 AM Kielty, according to the Daily News this morning, has a bruised knee and will be out for a few weeks. Fman99 Apr 22 2009 07:08 AM Sloppy and frustrating to watch. Gave me the brain pain. soupcan Apr 22 2009 07:14 AM Ugh. Murphy and Beltran. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 07:56 AM And those 80-pitch drills obviously didn't come with men in scoring position. Vic Sage Apr 22 2009 09:25 AM ]Jerry left Ollie out too long. listening on the radio, you could tell that Howie was practically begging Manuel to lift Perez before he imploded. Why is it everybody can see it coming but our manager? ]Jerry had Church bunt a guy to second with no out. Leave yourself no margin for error and get screwed when a guy makes an error. the other day, Jerry got killed for NOT BUNTING with Tatis. I think he overreacted to that criticism. Hey, Jerr... BIFL! ]Getting thrown out at home? Sure, whatever, but slide. Murphy, Beltran, slide. I heard Beltran explain the lack of a slide with "i looked up and was too close to home to slide." say what? First of all, you knew when you took off from 3rd that you were heading to the plate, right Carlos? So you were caught unaware when you got there? And even if your mind wandered and your arrival at home came as such a surprise, then why aren't you barreling the catcher over? Beltran, you are as soft as custard in August. ]Castillo, help Beltran out. I'm not of the belief that he play was all in front of Beltran. the ball came from the left side of the mound. Castillo has nothing to do with this. Slide or Collide, Carlos. Man up, you donkey. ]Bench Murphy, Beltran, and Castillo tomorrow. Start Racienello if you have to. How about Wright, and his 4rbi? Is he off the hook? Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 09:40 AM ="Vic Sage"]]Jerry left Ollie out too long. listening on the radio, you could tell that Howie was practically begging Manuel to lift Perez before he imploded. Why is it everybody can see it coming but our manager? Gary Cohen was commenting on this at the time. He pointed at Jerry's remarkably candid statement about bullpen usage a few weeks back, saying that he has to remind himself that he's managing for a win, rather than to get a guy credited with a save. Similarly, sometimes managers have to remind themselves that they are managing for a win, rather than to get a guy credited with a win. Joe Torre in the 2000 series pulled Denny Neagle with two out in the fourth so David Cone and Laredo could get Mike Piazza in a tight spot. It was the world series and there was no time for futzing around to pad stats. Well, I'd say that in the big leagues, mostly all the time is no time for futzing around to pad stats. Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 09:43 AM ="Vic Sage":nfsqwiqm]How about Wright, and his 4rbi? Is he off the hook?[/quote:nfsqwiqm] I'm not sure what you mean here. Wright had one RBI. Frayed Knot Apr 22 2009 10:56 AM I thinking he means his 4 for the season Between that and Ryan Church's Two! Rib-eyes pretty much sums up things so far. Both have a decent amount of hits leading to far less damage then one would expect. ]I heard Beltran explain the lack of a slide with "i looked up and was too close to home to slide." say what? First of all, you knew when you took off from 3rd that you were heading to the plate, right Carlos? So you were caught unaware when you got there? And even if your mind wandered and your arrival at home came as such a surprise, then why aren't you barreling the catcher over? I think he simply assumed he was going to be safe until the speed with which the StL 3rd baseman retrieved the ball surprised him. By then he resorted to the long final stride in order to get in but landed on Molina's foot instead.

I was pissed at Looie on the Beltran play too, but realistically, I don't know. By all rights, Beltran's at third on that play. There's no real reason for Castillo to race to home plate, because they play didn't develop until after the ball bounced off Thurston... and even then, it was Carlos's call to run, not Razor's. Razor was pointing him back to the bag, but Carlos figured (correctly) that he could make it. Castillo wouldn't have had enough time to race over there and help. Beltran's gotta know to either slide or take out Molina on that play. I think he left Ollie out there too long also, and I thought Fossum was a bad choice. And yes, Murphy's dreadful in left field, but he's an infielder; he came up as a third baseman. I'm not saying third and second are the same, but it's certainly less ground to cover than he has now in left field. Plus, at second base, his arm isn't as exposed. I don't think Murphy's the answer, but it's just too soon to say. Maybe he's more Gregg Jefferies than we think.

Busch Points: Ryan 1 Pujols 2 Ankiel 1 JManuel 2 Murphy 2.5 Beltran 1 Fossum 0.5

And Thurston's positioned perfectly too! He must have been playing twenty feet shallow of third base. Fucking hell.

Who the hell is this Ryan kid? He looks like he's twelve years old, but he's been positioned perfectly on two shoulda-been hits tonight.

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, I don't think working by the touch-the glove rule is particularly rational. A free throw is still a free throw whether it hits the rim or not. Yeah. That's clearly an error. A mental error, maybe, because he misjudged it, but an error nonetheless. Come on, Looie. Let's get this fucking thing started.

Gary's not on his game today. "With Ollie pitching well today"? Are you watching the same game, Gary?

Edgy DC wrote: ="Swan Swan H"]Murphy's play was gruesome, but those were two ropes off of Putz so far. Scored a triple. I don't get that stuff. Because his glove never touched the ball. He started in, then stopped and fell on his ass and the ball flew over his head.

Edgy DC wrote: Was Castillo not helping him? Just rewound it, and no. Castillo was still hanging out in the on-deck circle. And Razor Shines was pointing Beltran back to third; Carlos went on his own. A smart move to go for it, but a dumbass move not to slide.

themetfairy wrote: I cannot take this fucking game. Daniel Murphy needs to shuffle off to Buffalo for some fielding lessons. And WTF was Beltran thinking? Shitfuck! He's getting exposed out there. I know they love his potential bat, but it's just not working. You need to have someone out there who can play, and if you're going to contend, you can't give games away the way they have tonight.

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Radio is making it sound like Molina had the plate blocked well. Was it as bad as it sounded? He had a foot in front of home plate. A slide beats him easily, because the throw was high and Molina couldn't have gotten down in time.

Ah, fucking hell, Murphy.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME, CARLOS?!?! SLIDE! WHAT THE HELL!!! Dammit.

YA! Pretty. I like Stokes.

Catcher's interference?!?! Fucking hell. And great, it's Yadier.

I like this Castillo kid. He's spunky. We should sign him to a long-term deal.

Fman99 wrote: ="seawolf17"]Fman99 wrote: So Fossum has been a starter in AAA, and now he's thrown in as a RP on his first day in the bigs? With the bases loaded? Dumb. Should have been Pedro Feliciano in to pitch to the lefty. No question. I know Pedro's arm is going to fall off, but lefties can't hit him. Fossum's not a specialist, he's a long man. Dreadful call by Jerry. Of course LaRussa could have pinch hit a righty to face Feliciano, I suppose. Still -- give the rook a fresh inning for his first appearance. Right? I don't get it. He's not a kid -- he's 31 years old and has pitched almost 800 major league innings -- but still, that's a rough assignment the day you get called up.

Irish! Get out of the IGT and play your Scrabble move.

Fman99 wrote: So Fossum has been a starter in AAA, and now he's thrown in as a RP on his first day in the bigs? With the bases loaded? Dumb. Should have been Pedro Feliciano in to pitch to the lefty. No question. I know Pedro's arm is going to fall off, but lefties can't hit him. Fossum's not a specialist, he's a long man. Dreadful call by Jerry.

Really? Casey Fossum?

A little adventurous by Dale Sveum Razor Shines at third base, there, no? That wasn't even close. Why not hold him with the middle of the order coming up? Hmm.

="metsmarathon":x5q3u656]to be clear, that'd still be the case if shea were standing and citi were a parking lot, right?[/quote:x5q3u656] Yes. We really don't go to games; never have. Once, maybe twice if a friend can score me free tickets. Nymr83 Apr 21 2009 02:55 PM I know i've said this before but i have to harp on it again here: unlike its competitiors (hey mr. dolan! screw you!) the mets allow outside food to be brought in to the stadium, they'll let pretty much anything in as long as it is (or even appears to be) non-alcoholic and not in a glass bottle, so i dont think its fair to say that food is part of the mandatory cost of going to a game. soupcan Apr 21 2009 03:15 PM ="Ashie62":61fwbka1]If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson. Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management..[/quote:61fwbka1] Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson. As to the Ebbets Field / Jackie Robinson / Dodger thing - Is it so hard to understand that they are honoring the man and not the ballplayer? The guy happened to play for the Dodgers but he was a whole lot more than just a ballplayer. The chose to pattern the stadium after Ebbets Field, big deal. They did the same thing in Milwaukee, where's the uproar there? Guess what - there isn't any. Personally, if and when Citi Group ceases to exist and there comes a time when sports arenas revert back to being named in honor of certain individuals, I'd think 'Jackie Robinson Field' would be an excellent choice. Benjamin Grimm Apr 21 2009 03:33 PM And there's a distinction (at least, I see one) between the Los Angeles Dodgers (an opposing team) and the Brooklyn Dodgers, an ancestor of the Mets, as are the New York Giants. Vic Sage Apr 22 2009 09:05 AM I don't object to the "Robinson Rotunda" as such, or the Ebbets homage at all. What bothers me is that, in the absence of any NYGiants references (other than the black and orange outfield wall colors), or, for that matter, any Mets references (going so far as to react badly to the adhoc Gooden graffiti situation), the Dodger stuff is just so disproportionate. Yes, Jackie Robinson is worthy of tribute, but he's just as worthy of tribute in every major league city in America. I love the big screen tvs in the rotunda showing Robinson clips, and the big 42 is fine, and his words and philosophy are inspiring, but couldn't the rotunda have also celebrated Roberto Clemente (another player who never had anything whatsoever to do with the Mets), who is a revered player in the Latin community (very big in NYC), who died while bringing disaster relief to Nicaragua. Or a Giants great like Willie Mays, who at least ended his career back here in NYC. If it wasn't JUST about Robinson and Ebbetts field, i don't think many fans would have a problem. But so far, thats all it is, and so the Gooden thing gets overblown (by both sides), and the issue about their plans for a Mets HOF become more pressing and makes them look even worse. New building... same ole Mets. Vic Sage Apr 22 2009 09:11 AM AVI Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 09:15 AM As far as Mays and Clemente, Clemente was an excellent player and a fine man who died in a charitable enterprise and his legacy is worthy of honor. But I think it's fair that Robinson is a transcendent and transformational figure and I think his legacy is worthy of a singular honor. And New York was big part of that legacy, so it's appropriate that the honor be centered here. As far as Giants vs. Dodgers, a façade is a façade Ebbets had a handsome one and they decided to reference it. I went on record at the time saying that it looks out of place in a big parking lot instead of a neighborhood street corner, but here we are. If the outfield walls and the seat colors aren't enough of a Polo grounds counterbalance, I think we're getting a little beancounty regarding the issue of Dodgers/Giants equity. Ebbets theme outside. Polo Grounds theme inside. Neither hopefully so overwhelming that it won't be a Mets stadium when all is said and done. Your post yesterday seemed to give a Feh toward the Dodger/Giant thing. HahnSolo Apr 22 2009 09:23 AM I have said that I like the Rotunda. I think it is classy, and I think if you really want to avoid the Jackie stuff on your way through you can. So I'm not going to get into "they should have done this, they should have also honored this guy...." But to Edgy's point, I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter. Vic Sage Apr 22 2009 09:32 AM ]Your post yesterday seemed to give a Feh toward the Dodger/Giant thing it's really not that big issue to me, and i think "feh" pretty well sums up my attitude. I just think its become a bigger issue to the public because of the dunderheaded approach ownership has taken to honoring the Mets' own legacy. I'm not saying the necessarily SHOULD have built a tribute to Clemente or Mays, particularly, but its disproportionate to recognize to the extent they have non-Mets history in the new Mets building, or even to recognize 1 of their two progenitor franchises disproprtionately, without any recognition at all of their own history. Frankly, i'm more annoyed that the building sacrifices sightlines for "intimacy". batmagadanleadoff Apr 22 2009 09:36 AM ="HahnSolo":2b35ft50]I have said that I like the Rotunda. I think it is classy, and I think if you really want to avoid the Jackie stuff on your way through you can.[/quote:2b35ft50] If you don't like it, don't look at it. Not much consolation to someone less than thrilled with the JR Rotunda. The aesthetics is not a problem. ="HahnSolo":2b35ft50] I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter.[/quote:2b35ft50] I'm in the convenient rationalization after the fact camp, myself. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 09:48 AM ="HahnSolo":1ayohpol]I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter.[/quote:1ayohpol] Bingo. The green seats were in the plans from Day One and were never connected to the PG until relatively late in the game. The walls aren't any kind of explicit homage either from what I can tell. They're just black with orange numbers and, for my money, stupefyingly unattractive. There was supposed to be a "Coogan's Landing," in left field, but that got left on the drawing board. It was the only specific Polo Grounds reference planned. It sits in Press Release Park with the Orchard and the East Side, two other names mentioned early on that fell by the wayside. metsguyinmichigan Apr 22 2009 10:00 AM I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo. I think this thing with Gooden became a big deal because there are media types there who are just waiting to pounce and condemn the Mets. If Don Mattingly did the same thing at the Death Star, I suspect the coverage would have been different. Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 10:06 AM I'mnot sure how the green seats being there from Day One particularly undercuts the Mets' contention. Moreover, I think the conflating of the Dodgers/Giants thing with the lack-of-Mets-history thing is undermining the latter point. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 10:14 AM ="Edgy DC":3hs8m27h]I'mnot sure how the green seats being there from Day One particularly undercuts the Mets' contention. Moreover, I think the conflating of the Dodgers/Giants thing with the lack-of-Mets-history thing is undermining the latter point.[/quote:3hs8m27h] The seats are green because somebody liked the color, which is fine. Sometimes a green seat is just a green seat. The exterior and rotunda at 120-01 Roosevelt Avenue exist as they do because they existed that way at 55 Sullivan Place. Agreed Dodgers/Giants ratio is not relevant, specifically, to the lack of Metsiana. It just accents how skewed the sense of heritage informing this park is. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 10:22 AM ="metsguyinmichigan":2ec4je5k]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo. I think this thing with Gooden became a big deal because there are media types there who are just waiting to pounce and condemn the Mets. If Don Mattingly did the same thing at the Death Star, I suspect the coverage would have been different.[/quote:2ec4je5k] If this place had been designed to mimic the Polo Grounds, if there was a Stoneham Club, if a Christy Matthewson Plaza welcomed you -- and there was as little about the Mets informing the place and zero about the Dodgers -- it would be as creepy and misguided as the pervasive presence of the Ebbets fetish. The Mets deserved the pouncing and condemnation on Gooden for their reaction and overreaction. How they lacked the presence of mind to make lemonade out of lemons is indicative of the lack of imagination that made their default stadium an aping of someone else's. And if the MFYs treated Mattingly's hypothetical wall signature as the Mets initially did, they'd hear about it, too. Not an issue for the MFYs since they set up a museum with nearly 700 baseballs autographed by MFY players and personalities. batmagadanleadoff Apr 22 2009 10:44 AM ="G-Fafif":1pl4ukac]The seats are green because somebody liked the color, which is fine. Sometimes a green seat is just a green seat.[/quote:1pl4ukac] This is exactly what I thought the instant I skeptically read the Mets propaganda about how green was supposedly for the Polo Grounds. It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. Of course, the PG's were also home to our Mets and so there'd be some nose cutting face-spiting going on here, but this thread is all about the Mets ignoring their own heritage. (Not that I believe the MFY angle that I invented just for the sake of this post). Benjamin Grimm Apr 22 2009 11:18 AM You know, if they don't cover Doc's signature with plexiglass, it's only a matter of time before someone adds another line to it: 87 DRUG SUSPENSION Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 11:20 AM See, that's why you can't quit your Mets jones. I won't allow it. Benjamin Grimm Apr 22 2009 11:29 AM I'll try to hang in there, then. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 11:30 AM ="batmagadanleadoff":1zlf960a]It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. [/quote:1zlf960a] In which case, forget Shea and its clutch of poorly hosted "home games" in '74, '75 and '98. soupcan Apr 22 2009 11:32 AM ="metsguyinmichigan":bz15gf10]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:bz15gf10] That's an excellent point. batmagadanleadoff Apr 22 2009 04:04 PM ="soupcan":2n1x70ze]="metsguyinmichigan":2n1x70ze]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:2n1x70ze] That's an excellent point.[/quote:2n1x70ze] Except that the Dodgers also get Met uni love from the color blue. Ashie62 Apr 22 2009 04:09 PM ="soupcan":2tdnfklr]="Ashie62":2tdnfklr]If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson. Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management..[/quote:2tdnfklr][/quote:2tdnfklr] Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson. All men are created equal Met Hunter Apr 22 2009 07:08 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":60pwhhxj]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo. [/quote:60pwhhxj] I'd be ok with a John McGraw tribute somewhere in the rotunda. Especially knowing that Mrs. McGraw, at the closing of the Polo Grounds, (a place the Mets actually played) after being asked how her husband would feel, said "He's rolling over in his grave". metsguyinmichigan Apr 22 2009 07:49 PM When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk. Swan Swan H Apr 22 2009 07:57 PM Xerox is a big sponsor this year. Get them on the blower and start working on some interactive stuff for the new HOF. Barter, boys, get this thing moving. Frayed Knot Apr 22 2009 07:59 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":3ix69awn]When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk.[/quote:3ix69awn] We don't have room for that sort of stuff. Ashie62 Apr 22 2009 08:15 PM Wouldn't adding NY Giants stuff on top of Dodger stuff on top of Mets stuff with more Mets stuff coming be too much stuff? If a woodchuck could chuck stuff. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 08:51 PM There's probably some space where the 2009 World Champions pennant was supposed to go. Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 09:40 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1nasyirq]When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk.[/quote:1nasyirq] Isn't this the exact opposite of what people are decrying? soupcan Apr 23 2009 07:50 AM ="batmagadanleadoff":dzaavb83]="soupcan":dzaavb83]="metsguyinmichigan":dzaavb83]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:dzaavb83] That's an excellent point.[/quote:dzaavb83] Except that the Dodgers also get Met uni love from the color blue.[/quote:dzaavb83] Do people look at the 'W' on the Nats cap and think of the Senators (yes) or do they look at the red cap and think of the Expos (no)? The only people that know that the Mets orange and blue are from the Dodgers and Giants are the more-than-fair-weather Mets fans. The interlocking 'NY' is a much more identifiable symbol of the New York Giants than the blue (which is a different shade of blue) of the Dodgers. ="Ashie62":dzaavb83]="soupcan":dzaavb83]="Ashie62":dzaavb83] If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson. Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management.. [/quote:dzaavb83] Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson. [/quote:dzaavb83] All men are created equal[/quote:dzaavb83] But some men are more equal than others. batmagadanleadoff Apr 23 2009 08:55 AM ="G-Fafif":2nv25y2s]="batmagadanleadoff":2nv25y2s]It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. [/quote:2nv25y2s] In which case, forget Shea and its clutch of poorly hosted "home games" in '74, '75 and '98.[/quote:2nv25y2s] Well ... like I said ... this thread is about the Mets ignoring their own history. soupcan Apr 23 2009 10:51 AM ] April 24, 2009 Some Fans Feel New Home Ignores the Old Mets By KEN BELSON Where have you gone, Tug McGraw? Apparently, to the windswept left-field entrance of Citi Field. The Mets have taken a lot heat from fans angry about the ticket prices and the obstructed views at Citi Field. A vocal minority of fans have also complained that the new $800 million ballpark does not do enough to honor the team�s history. �The Mets have always been a populist ball club; �Bring the kiddies, bring the wife,� everyman stars like Ed Kranepool, sign day, etc.,� James Conley, a Mets fan, said in an e-mail message. �The best way to recognize the history of the team is to recognize the close connection to the fan base the Mets club has always enjoyed.� Where, other fans complain, are the banners that used to hang inside Shea that could be seen from the escalators? (They were sold at auction.) What happened to the 1969 photo montage that adorned the outside of the right-field stands? (Gone like the stadium.) Where is the bronze statue of Mike Piazza hitting his famous home run in September 2001? (Not on the drawing board yet.) The Mets do nod to their past. On the left-field side of the stadium, there are a dozen or so black-and-white banners of Stengel and Hodges, Tom and Tug, Darryl and Dykstra and other Mets. They are classy photos, but seen by only a fraction of the fans since most people enter through the rotunda near the subway station. The four retired numbers hang on the left-field fence, and the team�s championship flags fly on poles in right field. The old home run apple sits near a picnic area in right field, and the skyline from the old scoreboard is above the Shake Shack. The 18,000 bricks on the Fan Walk are touching, and the Jackie Robinson Rotunda is a high-minded tribute, even if Robinson never played for the Mets. But some fans are irked by the team�s decision to model Citi Field after Ebbets Field. (The Dodgers left New York long before many of them were born.) A handful of other fans wish the Mets did more to honor the Giants and the Polo Grounds. The Mets are aware of these complaints, including the chatter on sports radio stations. But opening the stadium on time took precedence over adornments. �It was something we always intended, but it wasn�t given a priority,� said Dave Howard, the Mets� vice president for operations. Howard said the team was working to add more memorabilia, including a display of Topps baseball cards of Mets from each year since 1962. Banners like the ones outside the stadium could be hung on the concourses inside. The busts in the team�s hall of fame, which has not added a member since 2002, could be replaced by plaques with relief sculptures and descriptions. Life-size statues, like the ones at AT&T Park and Busch Stadium, are possible. These additions will take time, though, which means the Mets will have to endure more taunts from their fans. Howard is sanguine. �I�m never surprised and always encouraged by the passion of Met fans,� he said. �It�s great that people care this much and we listen to it.� John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 23 2009 10:56 AM I can almost see Howard reading his quotes in the paper and saying "I think they bought it." G-Fafif Apr 23 2009 01:20 PM It is great people care this much. I doubt they listen to it. Now to get the passion of the players to match the passion of the fans. seawolf17 Apr 23 2009 01:48 PM ="nytimes":wyzq4ko4]including a display of Topps baseball cards of Mets from each year since 1962[/quote:wyzq4ko4] Ooh, I'd be thrilled with that, considering I'm working on that Mets Topps run myself. SteveJRogers Apr 23 2009 04:12 PM ]�The Mets have always been a populist ball club; �Bring the kiddies, bring the wife,� everyman stars like Ed Kranepool, sign day, etc.,� James Conley, a Mets fan, said in an e-mail message. �The best way to recognize the history of the team is to recognize the close connection to the fan base the Mets club has always enjoyed.� I like this fellow's passion in terms of emailing The New York Times and all, but... Well for one, it was called "Banner Day." And second, even though I'm typing this on a fourm named in his honor, why is it that Kranepool, who barely started most of the time he was a Met, always gets spotlighted as the symbol of the franchise? Edgy DC Apr 23 2009 04:45 PM He doesn't always get spotlighted as a symbol of the franchise. Kong76 Apr 23 2009 05:15 PM I caught up three pages, good thread. Nice job with The Spirit of Metsio. EDC: He doesn't always get spotlighted as a symbol of the franchise <<< Jeets has 20/20 vision, the rest of the world is wearing bifocals. (loosely from some movie that I can't think of right now, Paul Newman?)

="Swan Swan H":1yu07vce]Seawolf, I disagree with a lot of what you said, but opinion is opinion. However, about the 'Can't Afford It' part - Sunday 4/26 against the Nats - $15 a pop. The following Monday against your division leading Florida Marlins - $11 per. That's what it costs to see a crappy movie on a weeknight. I apologize for offending you if you honestly can't afford that, and I understand that a lot of folks can't, but that hardly seems unreasonable.[/quote:1yu07vce] No offense taken; I look at the total cost of four tickets, parking/gas for a 90-minute ride plus traffic, plus food... and that's a $150 night in the cheap seats. With two small kids, that's a major expense for us. Like I said, I only went to one or two games a year anyway, so it's not like they're losing money if I don't go. metsmarathon Apr 21 2009 02:43 PM to be clear, that'd still be the case if shea were standing and citi were a parking lot, right? Swan Swan H Apr 21 2009 02:46 PM I get that. We pack lunch just about every time we go, though we have been sampling the new stuff. Still bringing in bottles of water and soda, rather than pay the crazy prices. By June we'll be bagging sandwiches from home again, I'm sure. I've just seen a ton of stories about ticket prices, and I really believe it's scaring a lot of people away, folks who think they can't get a ticket for under $100 so they don't bother checking. Ashie62 Apr 21 2009 02:48 PM ="Swan Swan H":2knvdr8o]Seawolf, I disagree with a lot of what you said, but opinion is opinion. However, about the 'Can't Afford It' part - Sunday 4/26 against the Nats - $15 a pop. The following Monday against your division leading Florida Marlins - $11 per. That's what it costs to see a crappy movie on a weeknight. I apologize for offending you if you honestly can't afford that, and I understand that a lot of folks can't, but that hardly seems unreasonable.[/quote:2knvdr8o] You can enjoy your world class citifield on SNY on basic cable. Same cost as a cheap movie? Are you nuts??? 2 Train rides, 2 subway rides, some food..It's a luxury to many of us. As far as Gooden goes..look the guy got sandbagged by an employee with a sharpie and did what comes naturally, sign something. If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson. Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management.. seawolf17 Apr 21 2009 02:53 PM ="metsmarathon":x5q3u656]to be clear, that'd still be the case if shea were standing and citi were a parking lot, right?[/quote:x5q3u656] Yes. We really don't go to games; never have. Once, maybe twice if a friend can score me free tickets. Nymr83 Apr 21 2009 02:55 PM I know i've said this before but i have to harp on it again here: unlike its competitiors (hey mr. dolan! screw you!) the mets allow outside food to be brought in to the stadium, they'll let pretty much anything in as long as it is (or even appears to be) non-alcoholic and not in a glass bottle, so i dont think its fair to say that food is part of the mandatory cost of going to a game. soupcan Apr 21 2009 03:15 PM ="Ashie62":61fwbka1]If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson. Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management..[/quote:61fwbka1] Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson. As to the Ebbets Field / Jackie Robinson / Dodger thing - Is it so hard to understand that they are honoring the man and not the ballplayer? The guy happened to play for the Dodgers but he was a whole lot more than just a ballplayer. The chose to pattern the stadium after Ebbets Field, big deal. They did the same thing in Milwaukee, where's the uproar there? Guess what - there isn't any. Personally, if and when Citi Group ceases to exist and there comes a time when sports arenas revert back to being named in honor of certain individuals, I'd think 'Jackie Robinson Field' would be an excellent choice. Benjamin Grimm Apr 21 2009 03:33 PM And there's a distinction (at least, I see one) between the Los Angeles Dodgers (an opposing team) and the Brooklyn Dodgers, an ancestor of the Mets, as are the New York Giants. Vic Sage Apr 22 2009 09:05 AM I don't object to the "Robinson Rotunda" as such, or the Ebbets homage at all. What bothers me is that, in the absence of any NYGiants references (other than the black and orange outfield wall colors), or, for that matter, any Mets references (going so far as to react badly to the adhoc Gooden graffiti situation), the Dodger stuff is just so disproportionate. Yes, Jackie Robinson is worthy of tribute, but he's just as worthy of tribute in every major league city in America. I love the big screen tvs in the rotunda showing Robinson clips, and the big 42 is fine, and his words and philosophy are inspiring, but couldn't the rotunda have also celebrated Roberto Clemente (another player who never had anything whatsoever to do with the Mets), who is a revered player in the Latin community (very big in NYC), who died while bringing disaster relief to Nicaragua. Or a Giants great like Willie Mays, who at least ended his career back here in NYC. If it wasn't JUST about Robinson and Ebbetts field, i don't think many fans would have a problem. But so far, thats all it is, and so the Gooden thing gets overblown (by both sides), and the issue about their plans for a Mets HOF become more pressing and makes them look even worse. New building... same ole Mets. Vic Sage Apr 22 2009 09:11 AM AVI Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 09:15 AM As far as Mays and Clemente, Clemente was an excellent player and a fine man who died in a charitable enterprise and his legacy is worthy of honor. But I think it's fair that Robinson is a transcendent and transformational figure and I think his legacy is worthy of a singular honor. And New York was big part of that legacy, so it's appropriate that the honor be centered here. As far as Giants vs. Dodgers, a façade is a façade Ebbets had a handsome one and they decided to reference it. I went on record at the time saying that it looks out of place in a big parking lot instead of a neighborhood street corner, but here we are. If the outfield walls and the seat colors aren't enough of a Polo grounds counterbalance, I think we're getting a little beancounty regarding the issue of Dodgers/Giants equity. Ebbets theme outside. Polo Grounds theme inside. Neither hopefully so overwhelming that it won't be a Mets stadium when all is said and done. Your post yesterday seemed to give a Feh toward the Dodger/Giant thing. HahnSolo Apr 22 2009 09:23 AM I have said that I like the Rotunda. I think it is classy, and I think if you really want to avoid the Jackie stuff on your way through you can. So I'm not going to get into "they should have done this, they should have also honored this guy...." But to Edgy's point, I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter. Vic Sage Apr 22 2009 09:32 AM ]Your post yesterday seemed to give a Feh toward the Dodger/Giant thing it's really not that big issue to me, and i think "feh" pretty well sums up my attitude. I just think its become a bigger issue to the public because of the dunderheaded approach ownership has taken to honoring the Mets' own legacy. I'm not saying the necessarily SHOULD have built a tribute to Clemente or Mays, particularly, but its disproportionate to recognize to the extent they have non-Mets history in the new Mets building, or even to recognize 1 of their two progenitor franchises disproprtionately, without any recognition at all of their own history. Frankly, i'm more annoyed that the building sacrifices sightlines for "intimacy". batmagadanleadoff Apr 22 2009 09:36 AM ="HahnSolo":2b35ft50]I have said that I like the Rotunda. I think it is classy, and I think if you really want to avoid the Jackie stuff on your way through you can.[/quote:2b35ft50] If you don't like it, don't look at it. Not much consolation to someone less than thrilled with the JR Rotunda. The aesthetics is not a problem. ="HahnSolo":2b35ft50] I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter.[/quote:2b35ft50] I'm in the convenient rationalization after the fact camp, myself. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 09:48 AM ="HahnSolo":1ayohpol]I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter.[/quote:1ayohpol] Bingo. The green seats were in the plans from Day One and were never connected to the PG until relatively late in the game. The walls aren't any kind of explicit homage either from what I can tell. They're just black with orange numbers and, for my money, stupefyingly unattractive. There was supposed to be a "Coogan's Landing," in left field, but that got left on the drawing board. It was the only specific Polo Grounds reference planned. It sits in Press Release Park with the Orchard and the East Side, two other names mentioned early on that fell by the wayside. metsguyinmichigan Apr 22 2009 10:00 AM I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo. I think this thing with Gooden became a big deal because there are media types there who are just waiting to pounce and condemn the Mets. If Don Mattingly did the same thing at the Death Star, I suspect the coverage would have been different. Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 10:06 AM I'mnot sure how the green seats being there from Day One particularly undercuts the Mets' contention. Moreover, I think the conflating of the Dodgers/Giants thing with the lack-of-Mets-history thing is undermining the latter point. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 10:14 AM ="Edgy DC":3hs8m27h]I'mnot sure how the green seats being there from Day One particularly undercuts the Mets' contention. Moreover, I think the conflating of the Dodgers/Giants thing with the lack-of-Mets-history thing is undermining the latter point.[/quote:3hs8m27h] The seats are green because somebody liked the color, which is fine. Sometimes a green seat is just a green seat. The exterior and rotunda at 120-01 Roosevelt Avenue exist as they do because they existed that way at 55 Sullivan Place. Agreed Dodgers/Giants ratio is not relevant, specifically, to the lack of Metsiana. It just accents how skewed the sense of heritage informing this park is. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 10:22 AM ="metsguyinmichigan":2ec4je5k]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo. I think this thing with Gooden became a big deal because there are media types there who are just waiting to pounce and condemn the Mets. If Don Mattingly did the same thing at the Death Star, I suspect the coverage would have been different.[/quote:2ec4je5k] If this place had been designed to mimic the Polo Grounds, if there was a Stoneham Club, if a Christy Matthewson Plaza welcomed you -- and there was as little about the Mets informing the place and zero about the Dodgers -- it would be as creepy and misguided as the pervasive presence of the Ebbets fetish. The Mets deserved the pouncing and condemnation on Gooden for their reaction and overreaction. How they lacked the presence of mind to make lemonade out of lemons is indicative of the lack of imagination that made their default stadium an aping of someone else's. And if the MFYs treated Mattingly's hypothetical wall signature as the Mets initially did, they'd hear about it, too. Not an issue for the MFYs since they set up a museum with nearly 700 baseballs autographed by MFY players and personalities. batmagadanleadoff Apr 22 2009 10:44 AM ="G-Fafif":1pl4ukac]The seats are green because somebody liked the color, which is fine. Sometimes a green seat is just a green seat.[/quote:1pl4ukac] This is exactly what I thought the instant I skeptically read the Mets propaganda about how green was supposedly for the Polo Grounds. It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. Of course, the PG's were also home to our Mets and so there'd be some nose cutting face-spiting going on here, but this thread is all about the Mets ignoring their own heritage. (Not that I believe the MFY angle that I invented just for the sake of this post). Benjamin Grimm Apr 22 2009 11:18 AM You know, if they don't cover Doc's signature with plexiglass, it's only a matter of time before someone adds another line to it: 87 DRUG SUSPENSION Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 11:20 AM See, that's why you can't quit your Mets jones. I won't allow it. Benjamin Grimm Apr 22 2009 11:29 AM I'll try to hang in there, then. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 11:30 AM ="batmagadanleadoff":1zlf960a]It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. [/quote:1zlf960a] In which case, forget Shea and its clutch of poorly hosted "home games" in '74, '75 and '98. soupcan Apr 22 2009 11:32 AM ="metsguyinmichigan":bz15gf10]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:bz15gf10] That's an excellent point. batmagadanleadoff Apr 22 2009 04:04 PM ="soupcan":2n1x70ze]="metsguyinmichigan":2n1x70ze]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:2n1x70ze] That's an excellent point.[/quote:2n1x70ze] Except that the Dodgers also get Met uni love from the color blue. Ashie62 Apr 22 2009 04:09 PM ="soupcan":2tdnfklr]="Ashie62":2tdnfklr]If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson. Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management..[/quote:2tdnfklr][/quote:2tdnfklr] Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson. All men are created equal Met Hunter Apr 22 2009 07:08 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":60pwhhxj]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo. [/quote:60pwhhxj] I'd be ok with a John McGraw tribute somewhere in the rotunda. Especially knowing that Mrs. McGraw, at the closing of the Polo Grounds, (a place the Mets actually played) after being asked how her husband would feel, said "He's rolling over in his grave". metsguyinmichigan Apr 22 2009 07:49 PM When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk. Swan Swan H Apr 22 2009 07:57 PM Xerox is a big sponsor this year. Get them on the blower and start working on some interactive stuff for the new HOF. Barter, boys, get this thing moving. Frayed Knot Apr 22 2009 07:59 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":3ix69awn]When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk.[/quote:3ix69awn] We don't have room for that sort of stuff. Ashie62 Apr 22 2009 08:15 PM Wouldn't adding NY Giants stuff on top of Dodger stuff on top of Mets stuff with more Mets stuff coming be too much stuff? If a woodchuck could chuck stuff. G-Fafif Apr 22 2009 08:51 PM There's probably some space where the 2009 World Champions pennant was supposed to go. Edgy DC Apr 22 2009 09:40 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1nasyirq]When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk.[/quote:1nasyirq] Isn't this the exact opposite of what people are decrying? soupcan Apr 23 2009 07:50 AM ="batmagadanleadoff":dzaavb83]="soupcan":dzaavb83]="metsguyinmichigan":dzaavb83]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:dzaavb83] That's an excellent point.[/quote:dzaavb83] Except that the Dodgers also get Met uni love from the color blue.[/quote:dzaavb83] Do people look at the 'W' on the Nats cap and think of the Senators (yes) or do they look at the red cap and think of the Expos (no)? The only people that know that the Mets orange and blue are from the Dodgers and Giants are the more-than-fair-weather Mets fans. The interlocking 'NY' is a much more identifiable symbol of the New York Giants than the blue (which is a different shade of blue) of the Dodgers. ="Ashie62":dzaavb83]="soupcan":dzaavb83]="Ashie62":dzaavb83] If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson. Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management.. [/quote:dzaavb83] Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson. [/quote:dzaavb83] All men are created equal[/quote:dzaavb83] But some men are more equal than others. batmagadanleadoff Apr 23 2009 08:55 AM ="G-Fafif":2nv25y2s]="batmagadanleadoff":2nv25y2s]It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. [/quote:2nv25y2s] In which case, forget Shea and its clutch of poorly hosted "home games" in '74, '75 and '98.[/quote:2nv25y2s] Well ... like I said ... this thread is about the Mets ignoring their own history. soupcan Apr 23 2009 10:51 AM ] April 24, 2009 Some Fans Feel New Home Ignores the Old Mets By KEN BELSON Where have you gone, Tug McGraw? Apparently, to the windswept left-field entrance of Citi Field. The Mets have taken a lot heat from fans angry about the ticket prices and the obstructed views at Citi Field. A vocal minority of fans have also complained that the new $800 million ballpark does not do enough to honor the team�s history. �The Mets have always been a populist ball club; �Bring the kiddies, bring the wife,� everyman stars like Ed Kranepool, sign day, etc.,� James Conley, a Mets fan, said in an e-mail message. �The best way to recognize the history of the team is to recognize the close connection to the fan base the Mets club has always enjoyed.� Where, other fans complain, are the banners that used to hang inside Shea that could be seen from the escalators? (They were sold at auction.) What happened to the 1969 photo montage that adorned the outside of the right-field stands? (Gone like the stadium.) Where is the bronze statue of Mike Piazza hitting his famous home run in September 2001? (Not on the drawing board yet.) The Mets do nod to their past. On the left-field side of the stadium, there are a dozen or so black-and-white banners of Stengel and Hodges, Tom and Tug, Darryl and Dykstra and other Mets. They are classy photos, but seen by only a fraction of the fans since most people enter through the rotunda near the subway station. The four retired numbers hang on the left-field fence, and the team�s championship flags fly on poles in right field. The old home run apple sits near a picnic area in right field, and the skyline from the old scoreboard is above the Shake Shack. The 18,000 bricks on the Fan Walk are touching, and the Jackie Robinson Rotunda is a high-minded tribute, even if Robinson never played for the Mets. But some fans are irked by the team�s decision to model Citi Field after Ebbets Field. (The Dodgers left New York long before many of them were born.) A handful of other fans wish the Mets did more to honor the Giants and the Polo Grounds. The Mets are aware of these complaints, including the chatter on sports radio stations. But opening the stadium on time took precedence over adornments. �It was something we always intended, but it wasn�t given a priority,� said Dave Howard, the Mets� vice president for operations. Howard said the team was working to add more memorabilia, including a display of Topps baseball cards of Mets from each year since 1962. Banners like the ones outside the stadium could be hung on the concourses inside. The busts in the team�s hall of fame, which has not added a member since 2002, could be replaced by plaques with relief sculptures and descriptions. Life-size statues, like the ones at AT&T Park and Busch Stadium, are possible. These additions will take time, though, which means the Mets will have to endure more taunts from their fans. Howard is sanguine. �I�m never surprised and always encouraged by the passion of Met fans,� he said. �It�s great that people care this much and we listen to it.� John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 23 2009 10:56 AM I can almost see Howard reading his quotes in the paper and saying "I think they bought it." G-Fafif Apr 23 2009 01:20 PM It is great people care this much. I doubt they listen to it. Now to get the passion of the players to match the passion of the fans. seawolf17 Apr 23 2009 01:48 PM ="nytimes":wyzq4ko4]including a display of Topps baseball cards of Mets from each year since 1962[/quote:wyzq4ko4] Ooh, I'd be thrilled with that, considering I'm working on that Mets Topps run myself. SteveJRogers Apr 23 2009 04:12 PM ]�The Mets have always been a populist ball club; �Bring the kiddies, bring the wife,� everyman stars like Ed Kranepool, sign day, etc.,� James Conley, a Mets fan, said in an e-mail message. �The best way to recognize the history of the team is to recognize the close connection to the fan base the Mets club has always enjoyed.� I like this fellow's passion in terms of emailing The New York Times and all, but... Well for one, it was called "Banner Day." And second, even though I'm typing this on a fourm named in his honor, why is it that Kranepool, who barely started most of the time he was a Met, always gets spotlighted as the symbol of the franchise? Edgy DC Apr 23 2009 04:45 PM He doesn't always get spotlighted as a symbol of the franchise. Kong76 Apr 23 2009 05:15 PM I caught up three pages, good thread. Nice job with The Spirit of Metsio. EDC: He doesn't always get spotlighted as a symbol of the franchise <<< Jeets has 20/20 vision, the rest of the world is wearing bifocals. (loosely from some movie that I can't think of right now, Paul Newman?)

I think JCL's right. All we've ever asked is for the team to recognize their own fucking history. Never mind the Giants or the Dodgers, it's not about them, and it's not even about Jackie Robinson. It's okay if your Mets history piece isn't open right away; just don't lie to us, or brush our concerns aside. Tell us you have a grand, sweeping plan to bring back all those great memories, and due to the construction schedule, you didn't have time to implement it all. We'll buy that, as long as you follow through. But I guess there's the rub; maybe they don't intend to follow through. They figured that like sheep, we'd eat up the new stadium at whatever prices they wanted to pay, gaga over all the fancy new amenities. It's like they got so convinced by the media -- and by themselves, too, I guess -- that Shea Stadium was a piece of crap and that we'd be so thrilled to be rid of it that we'd just be enthralled by the new park. They probably figured they could just toss the retired numbers up there on the wall and call it a day. Well, guess what? We're Mets fans. We love the Doug Flynns and Kevin McReynoldses and Jerry Fucking Grotes. Remember when they put up all the cool murals on the walls at Shea? Shit, I loved that. Every time they showed one during a broadcast, during some anecdote from Gary or Keith or Ron or whoever, it brought all those memories back. I know we're not the Yankees; I don't want us to be the Yankees. I want us to be the Mets... my Mets, the team I've watched and loved for twenty-five-plus years. I just don't know what's so bad about recognizing that the people who pay their fucking salaries and allow them to drive Lexuses want that too. Guess what, fellas? I grew up in Shea Stadium. That was home to me, even if I only went once or twice a year. And the reason it was home was because of everything Mets: the murals, the banners, the colors, the Tommie Agee marker, the apple, all of it. I didn't even have a problem with the HOF busts being completely inaccessible to the common man; it was something of an honor to be allowed in there, and I was okay with that, because I felt like once in a while, it was worth the money and time outlay to get the chance to check them out, to make that history part of my history. Eff Francesa, but he's right; if we don't agree with what they're doing, then don't buy into it. And I'm not; I have no plans to go to Citi Field this year, nor do I foresee myself doing so. I can't afford it. I'll watch them on TV, listen to the radio, discuss them here in the Pool. Just don't lie to me, Jeff and Fred and Jay. Tell me you didn't agree with what Doc did, but you're looking at other ways to honor alumni. They acted like petulant schoolmarms, demanding that the offending graffiti be expunged. Did they miss the fact that the people -- your fucking high-end clientele, by the way -- went crazy and loved it, taking pictures next to it? Shouldn't that have been a clue that maybe you were on to something there? Instead, we get a knee-jerk reaction that they HAD to know would irritate us, and then act all surprised when the Internet revolts. Ugh.