stevejrogers

Nymr83 wrote: ="AG/DC"]="SteveJRogers"]For every Amos Otis and Kevin Mitchell, there are probably many more Ed Hearns, Alex Escobars, David Wests and Rick Ownbeys. I'm telling you, when you get past probablies and look at facts, there's no way to argue that the Mets have historically come out on top in the trade game. Or anywhere close to it. why don't we do this? i'll be happy to split the work if someone comes up with the parameters Apparently from reading Edgy's reply about Singleton vs. Staub there might be a ton of working on setting up the parameters on this one. Good examples, can we argue that the fact that the Mets never really "needed" a Rick Augilera type closer, and Kevin Tapani's middle of the pack starter career negates Frank Viola's sweet but oh so short stay in Flushing? Do you also want to throw in intangibles such as "Well, Ryan would NEVER have been able to harness his ability the way he did in Anaheim" or "Scott was only good AFTER learning the split-finger or how to scuff a baseball" The same could also be said about Vaughn vs. Appier. Both turned up to be expensive headaches, would you rather call it a complete wash instead of a regular "bad Mets trade." Oh it was an expensive mistake, but is the transaction in a separate category since neither team really fared well with the player they received. And speaking of other categories, should we also create a "well Player X went somewhere else before blossoming" like Kevin Mitchell not panning out in San Diego before becoming a masher in San Fran? I've seen that "retort" used in defense of the Mitchell trade. It does seem like a daunting task to define the exact parameters to use.

metsmarathon wrote: no, the players they got in return did. Part of Val's dislike of the Santana deal is the potential of those the Mets parted with. Yes the fact that Santana can easily turn into the next Victor Zambrano just as easily as he can turn into the next Al Leiter is a major concern, but I'm shooting down Val's argument about those the Mets gave up. For every Amos Otis and Kevin Mitchell, there are probably many more Ed Hearns, Alex Escobars, David Wests and Rick Ownbeys.

Valadius wrote: And let's not forget the catastrophe of the pre-2002 trades. Mo Vaughn, etc. In all fairness though, as bad as Vaughn, Cedeno II, Burnitz II, and Robbie Alomar were, the players the Mets sent have not come back to bite them repeatedly in the butt the way Ryan, Otis, Seaver, Kazmir, etc did.

G-Fafif wrote: Haven't heard/read anything about contingency plans this time, maybe in deference to the point spread. Bloomberg, one assumes, could foot the bill out of coins that have slipped behind his sofa cushions. I did hear something about plans on 1050 ESPN Radio the other night about Battery Park. Thought it was strange that this particular radio station would announce it, especially since hosts on that station have often blasted local governments (i.e. Boston) for having such plans "leaked."

="soupcan"] Amos Otis, Ken Singleton - Singleton did net Rusty Staub though. Granted Staub got turned into an over-the-hill Lolich but still.

Valadius wrote: Now let's get back to that most pressing need - the bullpen that crapped out on us in September. Pen is small potatoes. Plus Mota and Sele are gone, but face it, having the 1999-2000 or 2006 pens are the exception rather than the rule in baseball. Got to mix and match more so than keeping the same corps throughout the year. Even the Red Sox had problems in the pen. Think they wanted to use Gagne in anything other than garbage time during the postseason?

CLOSE THE GAME JOHN! CLOSE THE GAME JOHN! FOR GOD SAKES JOHN, CLOSE THE GAME! Uh, I thought it was funny =

If you think thats bad, there have been situations where the jersey swatch doesn't even match the team the player is photographed with! For example, I've seen cards of Seaver as a Red, but with an obvious Mets jersey swatch!

Nymr83 wrote: ="AG/DC"]Sounds like a lot of forsaken perspective there, particularly on (8). Santana's best ERA+ is 182 and his next best is 161. Pedro has had five seasons over 200. Take them away and his career has been comparable to Santana's. i was just going to rip on the idiots who voted that way. Pedro is in the ALL-TIME discussion, Santana isn't close. Yup. Another case of the ESPN Generation being completely in the NOW. The only two ways POSSIBLE for Johan to have a better "career" than Pedro is a Metly only one, or if Santana suddenly becomes a smaller and left handed version of, well pick your favorite big long careered hurler, Ryan, Seaver, Clemens, Sutton, Blyleven, Johnson, etc.

="Valadius"]I was ecstatic about the Martinez signing. The difference is that then, we weren't giving anything up. There is also a difference between the way you are reacting to this move, and the Kazmir for Zambrano trade. Even if Mulvey even reaches the level that Scott Kazmir is at today it still is a much, much better trade. Kazmir was a jewel, and he was traded for a used lemon. Here we are trading jewels for a Porsche. Sure it's a used Porsche, and you never know what is going to happen but that is the risk you take in making deals. Hell Oliver Perez could pull a Mike Vail tomorrow (knock on wood that he doesn't) and never is the same again you would still say getting Perez was a good deal right? Mike Piazza at the end of the 1998 season could have said "FU, I'm going to Chicago/Anaheim/Colorado/or whomever else had their name mixed in" and you know how catchers have a tendency to break down and aren't productive once they hit their mid-30s, does that mean you WOULDN'T have pulled the trigger on getting him for essentially just Preston Wilson, and then locking him up after the season?

Valadius wrote: My problem is I'm afraid of Santana ending up going down the same road as Bartolo Colon. If he were three years younger I'd be happy. How were you on the Martinez signing? Granted you knew going in that he was on the downside and the chances that the last few years would be injury filled would be great it was still a deal the Mets had to do. Even looking back and realizing that Pedro started 12 games since June of 2006, and no postseason games, you have to call the Pedro deal a success right?

Nymr83 wrote: ]Tapani was small potatoes, a dime-a-dozen guy that could be had for an economical price actually, guys like that get huge contracts now. see gil meche. Right, good point!

Valadius wrote: My problem is I'm afraid of Santana ending up going down the same road as Bartolo Colon. If he were three years younger I'd be happy. You see Santana blowing up to Sid Fernandez porportions once hitting the Big City?

Elster88 wrote: ="Valadius"]This is why I don't want to trade for Santana. That's a ridiculous thing to say. You can't look at one trade and have it dictate what you will do for the rest of time. Not to mention all the hindsight about who exactly the Mets gave up. Would you have rather have had Aggie over John Franco? Okay maybe Augliera turned out to be more dominant for a shorter period of time, but it's not like the Mets have been starving for even a decent closer since Augliera left. Heck, except for after the Benitez trade the Mets have always had someone you could call a decent MLB closer since trading away Rick Augliera. Myers (who was defacto closer since the McDowell trade), Franco, Benitez, Looper, Wagner. Having a guy with some talent in the back of the pen has not been the Mets problem since 1989. Oh sure there WERE issues with all of the aforementioned, including Wagner, but if the Mets decided Rick Augliera was their future closer, people would be saying the same things about Aggie that they say today about Wagner. Very soild closer, but not that upper top tier of closer-dom. Kevin Tapani? You are afraid of the next KEVIN TAPANI? How many Kevin Tapani types have the Mets trotted out to the hill since 1989? Tapani was small potatoes, a dime-a-dozen guy that could be had for an economical price. And again, having a soild number 2 or 3 starter has never really been the Mets problem since 1989. Part of the problem is that they've tried to make number 2s and 3s into number 1 aces, but that is a different argument. You want to bring up Ryan for Fregosi or Kazmir for Zambrano, then its a soild argument, but Viola for Augliera does not rank among the worst trades in Met history. Even with Viola being finished at 33.

G-Fafif wrote: Wally Matthews: Giving Up Guerra a White Flag for Blue Mets HA! You did forget to work in a reference to either Carlos Beltran being frozen by Adam Wainright's curveball or the impending removal of the Iron Triangle junkyards!

Rick Augliera now in the Minnesota Twins Hall of Fame[/url:33rlws3n]

Plus that was a time consuming, lengthy article, this is just a quickie run down of stats with short text and photos augmenting it.

Heh, no that was just because I was up until 3am.

BTW what I mean about Eckersley's look through the years. Now he did stop drinking and all once he came home to Oakland and started to get in "better shape" but something that makes me go hmmmmm....

Relax I was planning on making this an active thread during the season which would include guys gaining on Wagner and such. The photos for the first post, just like the 300 Win countdown and 3,000 Strikeout countdown last year just for the heck of it. FWIW since you brought it up, here are the active (in 2007) relievers with more than 200 saves but less than Wagner: Roberto Hernandez 326 Troy Percival 324 Jose Mesa 321 Todd Jones 301 Armando Benitez 289 Jason Isringhausen 281 Bob Wickman 267

Had fun last year with Glavine's and Pedro's countdowns, thought I'd do the same for other historical feats that several Mets are marching towards. First up, Billy Wagner's march through the all time Saves list, currently Wagner is sitting on 358 and is all alone in 7th place, ahead of him... Trevor Hoffman 524 Lee Smith 478 Mariano Rivera 443 John Franco 424 Dennis Eckersley 390 Just bought a bunch of cards of Eck through the years, and there is some unsubstantial evidence looking at a slightly pudgy Cubbie and the slender look of his dominating years in Oakland. Hmmmm.... Jeff Reardon 367 Remember when he passed Rollie Fingers to be the all-time saves leader? Been so long now that Fingers is now 9th all time with 341. Just ahead and behind Wagner is Randy Myers with 347. Another good 30 save season in 2008 and you can project Billy Wagner as knocking on Eck's door with an excellent chance of 400 by 2009.

When did Phoenix become part of the Rocky Mountains?

Fran Tarkenton's SNL appearance would beg to differ http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/76msteroids.phtml 76m: Fran Tarkenton / Leo Sayer, Donny Harper Singers Sugar-Coated Anabolic Steroids .....Fran Tarkenton Wife.....Jane Curtin [ open on Fran sitting at the kitchen table ] Fran Tarkenton: Hi, I'm Fran Tarkenton. You know, it takes strength and stamina to play pro football. You need to replace lots of lost muscle tissue fast, and sometimes your metabolic system just can't pull it off alone. That's why I start each day with a big bowl of Sugar-Frosted Anabolic Steroids. This cereal is a delicious synthetic derivative of male hormones, and in one eight-ounce bowl I get more than my body would provide in three years.

Hey Zvon, or someone adept at Photoshop, it would make a great project to get the guys on Greg's list in Metly colors. Even if you can't Photoshop them on the Met Uni with their most well known uni number (i.e. it would look odd for Barry Larkin's head to be on Tim Teufel's body even if it is so Larkin can wear #11) it would look neat.

Not really if you stop and consider the health (not the demon ones) issues Straw faced in his career. Yes he still is as chiseled as he was coming out of Crenshaw, but if you want to question Ryan, why not question Strawberry. Speaking of why nots Reggie Jackson