Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

[dinosaur jesus]

I saw Dale Murphy once hit a line drive to right field--the opposite field. I assumed it would be caught, or maybe take a couple of hops to the fence, but it carried right over. Way over, still rising. I was stunned, because in those days you just didn't see balls hit that way go for home runs. And now, of course, it's routine. Was that true, and were most power hitters in those days dead pull hitters (and was Murphy incredibly strong)? Or had I been conditioned by watching too many games at Shea?

[Guest cooby]

Mattingly

[Frayed Knot]

The case for Trammell

[Edgy MD]

I would love to be swayed by the Jack Morris candidacy, but I don't see it. He belongs in the Staying Healthy Hall of Fame, and that's not nothing. He also belongs in the Pitching for Teams with Good Hitters Hall of Fame, but that should reflect a lot more on Trammel and Whitaker than on him.

He won 21 games three times, but he never had a season that particularly terrified anybody. And in fact, had a career ERA+ of 105. His calling card is that he won more games than anybody in the 1980s, but that falls apart among the two realities that (1) pitching wins are highly deceptive, and (2) decades are arbitrary frameworks and being a decade leader has a lot to do with when you came of age.

You know who the best leftfielder of the 1970s is? George Foster! Who's campaigning to put him in the Hall of Fame? Nobody that I've read.

On the back of Jack Morris's calling card is an all-time outstanding performance in a post-season. That would certainly put him over the top in a closer race, but I'm not seeing the rest of his candidacy as all that close. I'd take Jerry Koosman's career over his. I'd take Orel Hershiser's. I think I'd take Ron Guidry's and Dwight Gooden's. None of them had as many wins as him and none are banging down the doors of Cooperstown. But pitching wins are deceptive and he sure doesn't outclass any of them by any other standard.

[Guest cooby]

d'Kong76 wrote: Love it that Mattingly is still at zero, you're all a bunch of biased bastages!

BTW I voted for Mattingly before I saw this....Mattingly should have retired earlier, but mostly I voted him because there is a family joke about him, which you had to be there and pretty drunk to get, or I'd tell you. And it was 20+ years ago

Edit, just looked up his stats, I'll take that back. He was fairly decent all along

[nymr83]

41Forever wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: And Heinrich Himmler weighs in. And it figures, because Marvin Miller, I can say with indisputable 100% certainty, belongs in the Hall. You're seriously comparing Nymr83 to the man responsible for the Holocaust because he disagrees with you about a Hall of Fame vote? I don't see how that helps advance the discussion, and I don't think it's good for the forum. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll stop. But I think someone needs to say that this is just wrong.

i'm glad i blocked that POS, why is he still allowed to post here?

[nymr83]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oh, horseradish. Without Miller and Curt Flood, these guys are essentially mildly-higher-paid field hands, or football players with fewer head injuries. You'd rather the reserve clause? Does the game honestly seem worse off as a sport to you because free agency exists?

no, i'd prefer free agency for amateurs - but that doesnt mean it makes the game better - the game is worse off having missed games over labor issues that Miller was part of. he doesnt belong in and neither do the commissioners who let lockouts happen.

[Edgy MD]

But those players rights were won back from oblivion with those missed games.

And the game has flourished because of it. Sixty-nine-ish games missed between 1981 and 1972 seems a small price to pay. Hell, I consider it an act of solidarity, and an honor to have missed them. And I HATED the summer of 1981. I was miserable. Well, except for the release of Hard Promises.

Every player's career includes strikeouts. That is the price of the home runs.

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[Guest Mets Willets Point]

Jack Morris and Alan Trammel make the cut. I support this, and my Tiger-fan wife is pleased. I wouldn't have minded if some of the other candidates were inducted, and Marvin Miller's continued exclusion is the biggest slight.

[Guest 41Forever]

Lots of happy people in Detroit, especially for Trammell, who is beloved!

[Frayed Knot]

Morris has certainly been the favorite over the years among those all-purpose type sports writers/yakkers who also occasionally dabble in baseball coverage (He was a winner!!!") so I suspect they'll be trumpeting his induction while scratching their heads over Trammel's.
While on the other side of the fence, I suspect the hardcore baseball guys, particularly the more Sabermetrically inclined, will be more given to touting the Trammel vote.

[Edgy MD]

The highest ERA in the Hall of Fame belongs to Red Ruffing at 3.80. Morris will advance that record a full tenth of a run to 3.90. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. He was a good pitcher. But his real successes, apart from a great day in the World Series (which certainly matters), seems to me to be staying healthy and playing on a team with a stack of hitters like Alan Trammell.

Trammell, though, is a fine choice who should've made it through the front door.

[nymr83]

Do compilers always make it through the veterans committee? Tony Perez didnt deserve it either.

The biggest problem I have with Morris is that a dozen better pitchers arent in. He DRASTICALLY lowers the bar.

[Edgy MD]

Know who was better than Morris? Jerry Koosman was better than Morris. Pretty easily, to my thinking.

Morris' main calling card is "Most wins in the eighties." It always has been. He had the most wins in the eighties! How do you keep him out?

But both the rewarding of pitcher's wins and the framing stats in decade-long frames are pretty arbitrary and unscientific constructs. George Foster was the best leftfielder of the seventies. Nobody's backing the truck up for him.

Wait ... I said that earlier in this thread, didn't I? If so, never mind.

[nymr83]

List of some pitchers not in the HOF that I'd put in the HOF ahead of Morris:

Clemens, Schilling, Mussina, Gooden, Hershiser, Finley, Cone, Oswalt, Kevin Brown, Saberhagen, Santana, Holliday, Roberto Hernandez, Pettite*

this is just off-the-top-of-my-head, so there is a strong recency bias.

*gag

[Edgy MD]

Wait, Roberto Hernandez?

[nymr83]

Edgy MD wrote: Wait, Roberto Hernandez?

yeah i looked up the numbers and i am definitely confusing him with someone else, i'll withdraw that one.

[Frayed Knot]

The highest ERA in the Hall of Fame belongs to Red Ruffing at 3.80. Morris will advance that record a full tenth of a run to 3.90. I'm a little uncomfortable with that.

But he only had an ERA that high because -- wait for it -- he pitched to the score. Or so his supporters claim.
And tonight during an interview with Morris himself (he's conveniently shown up at the winter meetings) even he said that if he knew back when he was playing that there'd be as much emphasis on ERA then he could have done something about it.

I don't even know how to parse either of those claims.




And I don't mean to sound insulted that he's in the Hall or anything as he was a very good pitcher over a lengthy career. I just think he falls short in the final analysis and find the arguments otherwise to be lacking and filled with empty sounding platitudes which basically come down to: he's better than his record/numbers show because I say he was and the fact that I can't prove it is proof of how good he was. Or something like that.

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: But he only had an ERA that high because -- wait for it -- he pitched to the score. Or so his supporters claim.

The first time I remember hearing that argument was (of course) from a Yankees fan. He was talking about David Wells.

David Wells vs. Jack Morris career value is a good argument. that alone tells me Morris shouldn't be anywhere near a HOF conversation

[Edgy MD]

And I don't mean to sound insulted that he's in the Hall or anything as he was a very good pitcher over a lengthy career. I just think he falls short in the final analysis and find the arguments otherwise to be lacking and filled with empty sounding platitudes which basically come down to: he's better than his record/numbers show because I say he was and the fact that I can't prove it is proof of how good he was. Or something like that.

I actually read a sportswriter from Baltimore a year or two back, supporting Morris' candidacy, writing "You had to be there."

As if he was the only one paying attention to baseball in the eighties.

If there's anything sillier than crediting a guy with pitching to the score when it's the 1980s Tigers doing the scoring, it's crediting a guy for pitching to the score when it's it's the 1930s Yankees. Way to go, playing for that team, Red Ruffing. A Hall of Fame move, there.

[seawolf17]

Nymr83 wrote: Cone

I've been reading Bill James' recent book, and he makes a compelling case for Cone getting more consideration.

[MFS62]

The "he pitched to the score" argument for Morris is BS. It means he didn't feel he had to do his best all the time. What kind of message is that?

Later

[Guest 41Forever]

Morris certainly had a rep as a gruff guy. In 1991, when he left for the Twins, a photographer and I had an assignment to write a feature about all the things that went into preparing Tiger Stadium for Opening Day. We had the run of the place, and it was really, really cool. But one thing that jumped out at me was a note taped to the wall of the trainers room. Morris wrote a heartfelt, hand-written note to the trainers thanking them for all they had done for him. It was really nice. It seemed out of character.

[Valadius]

A good day for the Hall, but Miller's exclusion remains a travesty. Simmons should also be in. Hopefully the next time this era is considered, Whitaker is on the ballot.

[HahnSolo]

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: The highest ERA in the Hall of Fame belongs to Red Ruffing at 3.80. Morris will advance that record a full tenth of a run to 3.90. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. But he only had an ERA that high because -- wait for it -- he pitched to the score. Or so his supporters claim. And tonight during an interview with Morris himself (he's conveniently shown up at the winter meetings) even he said that if he knew back when he was playing that there'd be as much emphasis on ERA then he could have done something about it. I don't even know how to parse either of those claims.

I lived through Jack Morris's career in its entirety. He can't possibly be implying that ERA wasn't emphasized when judging pitchers back during his day, can he?

[G-Fafif]

Never really thought of Jack Morris as HOF caliber (Seaver, Gibson, Carlton level) during his career, with the caveat that I rarely gave much thought to Jack Morris while he was pitching every one of his innings in the American League. Several years ago, MLB Network did its series of Greatest Games of the previous fifty years, with the Twins-Braves 1-0 duel placing second. The guests were Morris and John Smoltz. I came away from listening to him thinking if he gets in, he'll give a helluva speech. For that alone I was cool with him going in (in the sense that his status wasn't going to bother me one way or the other).

I was reminded this morning of an unpleasant incident from his playing days:

When Detroit Free Press sports writer Jennifer Frey tried to get a comment from Tigers pitcher Jack Morris in the Tigers' clubhouse earlier this summer, he said, "I don't talk to people when I'm naked, especially women, unless they're on top of me or I'm on top of them." It was an odd thing to say, since Morris was wearing long underwear at the time.

There are countless rabbit holes one can go down that will leave you discouraged about humanity in general and Hall of Famers specifically, and one would like to believe that this boorishness not to mention unprofessionalism from 27 years ago would be something an older, perhaps more evolved person might regret or at least wouldn't do again. But now when I see Morris take the podium, no matter how eloquent or emotional he is, I'm gonna think, "man, what an unnecessary dick he was to the late Jennifer Frey."

[dgwphotography]

The Hall has been cheapened even more. Somewhat with the inclusion of Morris, even more with the continued exclusion of Marvin Miller.

[Frayed Knot]

HahnSolo wrote: [Morris] can't possibly be implying that ERA wasn't emphasized when judging pitchers back during his day, can he?

That's pretty much what it sounded like he was saying, like he was going with the MLB version of the old Junior High School complaint of 'nobody told us this was going to be on the test'.
Between that and the writers claiming that he could have pitched better but situationally chose not to, there are more than a few credibility tendons being strained here.

[nymr83]

You guys have an inexplicable boner for a union rep. The hall is not "cheapened" in any way, shape, or form by the non-inclusion of someone who never swung the bat or threw the ball. The hall is arguably cheapened by the exclusions of Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, and the collective assumed steroid users.

When I one day take my kid(s) to the hall, it may feel like something is missing when I don't see McGwire's name up there and wont be abke to tell them about the summer he was chasing the homerun record and I watched Turk Wendell come in and strike him out...twice in one day as part of a doubleheader. I wont give two shits about Miller not being there and I'd say the same about any other non-player.

[Edgy MD]

Marvin Miller wasn't a union rep. Josh Thole was a union rep. Rusty Staub was a union rep. Marvin Miller was the executive director. He was executive director of the most successful union in America during it's most successful era. And the game has reaped untold benefits because of it.