Ricco: It's Zobrist or dick for us this winter

[Centerfield]

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: I think each winter meetings we seem to go into woe-is-me mode when other teams head from the hotels with shiny new toys and we're looking at the same toy box. Since we're a month out of playing in a World Series, I have to give our guys the benefit of the doubt and assume they know what they're doing. Let other teams overspend of some of these guys.

This is silly. I get upset each winter because I feel the Mets don't do enough. And for the past several years, they haven't. Before this year, they hadn't had a winning record since 2008. And all the while, other teams are improving, signing players. Making the playoffs. So yes, call it "woe-is-me" mode if you like. I think I have a right to be upset when my team sucks and other teams get better.

They made the World Series after making the moves I implored them to make. And I applauded them when they did so. Now, they are at risk to returning to their old habits. That's why I'm upset.

Yes, let's let other teams "overspend". Let's not be the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers and Giants (the top 5 payrolls in baseball). Let's not be them at all. Let's pretend that this group has not won 6 out of the last 10 World Series.

Ha ha. Look at those foolish overspenders. What idiots they are.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Guest

[Centerfield]

*Avi

[Guest d'Kong76]

Centerfield wrote: Let's not be them at all. Let's pretend that this group has not won 6 out of the last 10 World Series.

Can I get an AMEN, brothers and sisters!?!

[Ceetar]

of course, the Mets have been the WS as much as, or more than, all those teams except the Giants in recent years.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Of course, they wouldn't have gotten there without Cespedes and perhaps
not have been as successful in the playoffs without Murphy.. both of whom
are now gone and replacements don't seem to be on the paydar.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Of course, they wouldn't have gotten there without Cespedes and perhaps not have been as successful in the playoffs without Murphy.. both of whom are now gone and replacements don't seem to be on the paydar.

I didn't see the link that said the Mets were considering 8 fielders. Is Flores going to try to field both second and SS?

[Frayed Knot]

MFS62 wrote: ... I don't think Haywood is the player they really need. Yes he can play centerfield. So can I. But you wouldn't want to see me do it, much less pay me to do it. If they take a run at Upton, I'd be all over that.

I don't think there's any basis for this. There may be better/more experienced defensive CFs in baseball than Hayward (and we may have one of them) but there aren't many and most teams would take him as their everyday CF for the next couple of years anyway. And if it's a CF you want, you'd certainly be better off with him over Upton.
Argue against Hayward all you want, but I wouldn't go citing defense as the reason.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ceetar wrote: I didn't see the link that said the Mets were considering 8 fielders.

Sssshhhhh, don't give Freddy any ideas for saving more money.

[Vic Sage]

CF and d'Kong, keep the flame alive!

I wasn't happy with our lineup going into 2015, and it wasn't until Cespedes and Conforto joined the returning Wright and d'Arnaud (and Johnson and Uribe won games with the depth they provided) that they went from the worst offense to the best offense in baseball. And now Cespedes and Murphy (probably) are gone, and Wright and d'Arnaud still have ongoing injury concerns, and Cuddyer is washed up, and Lagares can't reallly hit, and Flores doesn't have any range (and just busted his ankle), and our big move to fix this was going to be Zobrist? I didn't think that would be enough. and now they don't even get HIM? And everybody's ok with that, because a 4/yr $56m deal is some sort of crippling deal that would hobble us for years? wow, what total bullshit.

I predicted a 4/yr $60m deal for Zobrist, and the sabermetrically minded thought he was worth that and more, but that is an "overpay" we should be glad the Cubs indulged in? The Cubs are going to be one of our main rivals (if not THE main one) to win a pennant this year, and they replaced Starlin with Zobrist (win-win). And what are we doing? bemoaning the fact that Heyward is out of our reach?

WHY IS HE OUT OF OUR REACH? Go ahead, people, say it. I want you to say it out loud. Say it!. Because our owners were either stupid or corrupt enough to try and win money in a pyramid scam and, after making consistently big returns in a bear market (at which they did not look too hard), they got wiped out by the guy just above them in the pyramid. And so they hocked everything and the interest hasn't even come due yet, so they still talk like they're a NY team but act like CitiField is in Oakland.

We needed Zobrist + Heyward, we could make do with Murphy and Upton, but we're likely headed for Cabrera and Parra, or Span and Desmond (if we get anybody at all). And we're OK with that? The team should be in receivership and run by MLB, like they did with the Dodgers, until real owners are found. In the meantime, we'll just keep whistling past the graveyard and sing "happy days are here again."

This has been a message from Philosophers Against the Wilpons... PAW, pushing a rock uphill since December 11, 2008.

[batmagadanleadoff]

What Vic said. Of course. Because when I write that shit, it has no effect because I'm the Boy Who Cried Megdal.

And another thing. I don't agree with this prescient sort of credit the Mets are getting for getting Cespedes after the Gomez fiasco. Because nobody could have anticipated what Yoenis would do. He basically hit about a season's worth of HR's in less than a month, going on a hitting RAMPAGE for the ages. It was a freak thing more than anything else and it's scope was (is?) historical --- it's one of the most incredible three or four week hitting runs in baseball history. And it's important to know this because that's what the Mets have to replace -- a freak once in a lifetime hitting run that's not repeatable. Yoenis's streak won't happen again but its production is baked into the Mets 2015 success -- that's probably why they won the division. So yeah, 35 year old Zobrist won't get the Mets there. I don't know how they're gonna make that up but we're gonna have to hope for a big step up from at least Conforto and probably d'Arnaud. Meanwhile, Granderson'll be 35 and who knows what the hell the Mets have in Wright, who despite providing some huge emotional moments last season, was the most superfluous "regular" on the team. And he just killed the Mets in the WS.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: What Vic said. Of course. Because when I write that shit, it has no effect because I'm the Boy Who Cried Megdal. And another thing. I don't agree with this prescient sort of credit the Mets are getting for getting Cespedes after the Gomez fiasco. Because nobody could have anticipated what Yoenis would do. He basically hit about a season's worth of HR's in less than a month, going on a hitting RAMPAGE for the ages. It was a freak thing more than anything else and it's scope was (is?) historical --- it's one of the most incredible three or four week hitting runs in baseball history. And it's important to know this because that's what the Mets have to replace -- a freak once in a lifetime hitting run. Yoenis's streak won't happen again but its production is baked into the Mets 2015 success -- that's probably why they won the division. So yeah, 35 year old Zobrist won't get the Mets there. I don't know how they're gonna make that up but we're gonna have to hope for a big step up from at least Conforto and probably d'Arnaud. Meanwhile, Granderson'll be 35 and who knows what the hell the Mets have in Wright, who despite providing some huge emotional moments last season, was the most superfluous "regular" on the team. And he just killed the Mets in the WS.

OE--- And another thing, it's just mid-boggling how quick people are willing to ignore just how inept these owners are because the Mets went to the WS.

[Ceetar]

Because mostly all owners suck and I literally don't care about any of them. My team went to the World Series, and are, even right this moment, probably even money to win the division again. I'm happy.

who said Heyward is out of our reach anyway? I'm not the one pretending I know every ledger line on the Mets, and Sterlings, books.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, the World Series. Suckers.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Even back in my blue-and-orange-Wayfarer wearing days in 2000 I re-
member posting on fora of old... hey, the Mets raise the pennant today.
Oh, I forgot that sucks... nevermind.

I take no solace in being NL Champs if it was three steps forward in 2015
and two-and-a-half steps back in 2015-16 offseason.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, the World Series. Suckers.

As if on cue. Come on Edgy. You can admit that going to the World Series can be separated from the performance of the owners.

[Centerfield]

d'Kong76 wrote: Even back in my blue-and-orange-Wayfarer wearing days in 2000 I re- member posting on fora of old... hey, the Mets raise the pennant today. Oh, I forgot that sucks... nevermind. I take no solace in being NL Champs if it was three steps forward in 2015 and two-and-a-half steps back in 2015-16 offseason.

Yup.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: I take no solace in being NL Champs if it was three steps forward in 2015 and two-and-a-half steps back in 2015-16 offseason.

I don't care how many steps they take in the offseason, it's neither forward or back as there are no games.

[ashie62]

The Mets made the world series, They dont have to do much this offseason.

Goodbye Zobrist and Castro.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ceetar wrote: I don't care how many steps they take in the offseason

That is abundantly clear.

Surround these pitchers with some offense, Sterlingpon... you're on the
clock and it's ticking loudly before they all start evaporating elsewhere.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ashie62 wrote: The Mets made the world series, They dont have to do much this offseason. Goodbye Zobrist and Castro.

Of course not. If I ran the Mets I'd do nothing until about the All Star break and then I'd pick up an old Jack Aker and see what Ike Hampton and Brock Pemberton could do.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceetar wrote: I don't care how many steps they take in the offseason That is abundantly clear. Surround these pitchers with some offense, Sterlingpon... you're on the clock and it's ticking loudly before they all start evaporating elsewhere.

Not really how it works. I'm sure everyone will hate and bash whatever guys they do get as the 'wrong guys' unless they take the top 3 free agent hitters and even then it'll be the wrong top 3.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Not hating or bashing. I'm not going to beat this drum all winter.
But I'm also not going to sit idly by with blinders on and think the
Mets are a well run organization and amply financed.

Anyone who does is a sheep. Bahhhhh.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Not hating or bashing. I'm not going to beat this drum all winter. But I'm also not going to sit idly by with blinders on and think the Mets are a well run organization and amply financed. Anyone who does is a sheep. Bahhhhh.

They're as well run as any. Better than some.

[Centerfield]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: What Vic said. Of course. Because when I write that shit, it has no effect because I'm the Boy Who Cried Megdal.

batmagadan,

I'll be honest. I have been wondering how much of an effect you, and your non-stop re-posting of Megdal articles, have had on this debate here at the CPF.

I wonder if the Great Payroll Debates of the 2010's would even be a debate if not for the history here. To me, it seems like a no-brainer. Fred promised to spend more money once we got close and attendance went up. Increased payroll means elite free agents, better chance at winning. With this not happening, I would have predicted that all Mets fans would revolt unanimously.

But here, there is very little uproar about the payroll. A lot of justification of smaller moves. Even after we suffered through a league-worst offense, I feel like there is a strong contingent here not wanting to admit that the team was just not good enough before the trades. And now, with the team basically saying that they can't afford the top guys, I am seeing posters here stretch to find ways to justify the non-spending.

Up until last Winter, I didn't take part much in these debates. Largely because I didn't care. The team was not close. Shin Soo Choo was not going to make the difference one way or the other. Plus, I thought it was all overblown. I really did think that the Wilpons would open it up when the time was right.

But starting last winter, I felt like they were close, and started pushing for the big piece. We didn't get it. At the trade deadline, we were fortunate to secure those missing pieces at a bargain economically, though it did cost us in prospects. And now, this winter, the indications are that the Mets owners are still not ready to spend.

I'm fully willing to admit that Megdal may have been right. Look, it doesn't make him a good writer, and I don't buy everything he said still, but he called this, didn't he?

But people here are fighting me on this. And I wonder if this has something to do with you. This debate has been ongoing for years. People are entrenched in their positions. Agreeing with me, would essentially mean agreeing with you. And no one wants to do that.

I think this is all your fault.

[Centerfield]

Vic Sage wrote: CF and d'Kong, keep the flame alive! I wasn't happy with our lineup going into 2015, and it wasn't until Cespedes and Conforto joined the returning Wright and d'Arnaud (and Johnson and Uribe won games with the depth they provided) that they went from the worst offense to the best offense in baseball. And now Cespedes and Murphy (probably) are gone, and Wright and d'Arnaud still have ongoing injury concerns, and Cuddyer is washed up, and Lagares can't reallly hit, and Flores doesn't have any range (and just busted his ankle), and our big move to fix this was going to be Zobrist? I didn't think that would be enough. and now they don't even get HIM? And everybody's ok with that, because a 4/yr $56m deal is some sort of crippling deal that would hobble us for years? wow, what total bullshit. I predicted a 4/yr $60m deal for Zobrist, and the sabermetrically minded thought he was worth that and more, but that is an "overpay" we should be glad the Cubs indulged in? The Cubs are going to be one of our main rivals (if not THE main one) to win a pennant this year, and they replaced Starlin with Zobrist (win-win). And what are we doing? bemoaning the fact that Heyward is out of our reach? WHY IS HE OUT OF OUR REACH? Go ahead, people, say it. I want you to say it out loud. Say it!. Because our owners were either stupid or corrupt enough to try and win money in a pyramid scam and, after making consistently big returns in a bear market (at which they did not look too hard), they got wiped out by the guy just above them in the pyramid. And so they hocked everything and the interest hasn't even come due yet, so they still talk like they're a NY team but act like CitiField is in Oakland. We needed Zobrist + Heyward, we could make do with Murphy and Upton, but we're likely headed for Cabrera and Parra, or Span and Desmond (if we get anybody at all). And we're OK with that? The team should be in receivership and run by MLB, like they did with the Dodgers, until real owners are found. In the meantime, we'll just keep whistling past the graveyard and sing "happy days are here again." This has been a message from Philosophers Against the Wilpons... PAW, pushing a rock uphill since December 11, 2008.

This. Obviously.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Centerfield wrote: This debate has been ongoing for years. People are entrenched in their positions. Agreeing with me, would essentially mean agreeing with you. And no one wants to do that.

The years have passed and Sterlingpon can no longer hide behind
the ponzi-scheme kilt. That skirt has sailed.

CF, you know as much as anyone here that I was the Abe Froman
of ostrich. The Ostrich King of Flushing, if you will.

Enough is enough. I won't go on and on about it, I'm obnoxious and
generally disliked here anyways, in case you haven't heard.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

Centerfield wrote: But people here are fighting me on this. And I wonder if this has something to do with you. This debate has been ongoing for years. People are entrenched in their positions. Agreeing with me, would essentially mean agreeing with you. And no one wants to do that.

Please don't buy into the persecution complex. Pretty please.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: But people here are fighting me on this. And I wonder if this has something to do with you. This debate has been ongoing for years. People are entrenched in their positions. Agreeing with me, would essentially mean agreeing with you. And no one wants to do that. Please don't buy into the persecution complex. Pretty please.

You don't think there's some truth to it? That you guys don't particularly care for him?

I mean, I get it. He's agenda driven. Makes generalizations. Re-posts articles from a dislikeable author. Relentless. I mean, I more or less agree with him and I still don't like him.

[Edgy MD]

No, there's no truth in the notion that, if I happen to disagree with you about something, it's because, if I agree with you, it would be a tacit admission that batmagadan was right.

He's right often enough. He's certainly not right about being a martyr for the truth.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I like batmags, and we're the poster-children for not getting along (here).
I don't see any correlation between his stance and why some posters don't
buy the anti-Sterlingpon agenda.

Put another way, I don't think people take one side or the other based on the
posts of any one poster here whoever that poster may be.