Allez les Expos?

[Edgy MD]

d'Kong76 wrote: Soccer clubs are like churches over there, baseball isn't that way here.

Yeah, we just have artificial controls on which churches you can join, sucking all the fun out of church!!

And... what Willets said.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Anyway, I'm anti-expansion and in the disliking more watering down
of major league talent club.. If Montreal wants a team and can make
it work, it should take an existing one that isn't doing well.

[Guest d'Kong76]

And, of course, if Brooklyn should ever get a team and wants to
call it Brooklyn Whatevers... the Mets and Yankees have to change
their names to Queens and Bronx bbbyyy...

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Anyway, I'm anti-expansion and in the disliking more watering down of major league talent club.. If Montreal wants a team and can make it work, it should take an existing one that isn't doing well.

I'm all for expansion myself. I don't think it'll water it down so much if you also push the boundaries of finding players. Plus more clubs means more interest means more kids pursuing it as a dream? Also, with more teams you get to keep the current playoff system of wildcards and lots of races late while lowering the percentage of teams actually making the postseason. Given the pitching situation these days, you could almost use some watering down.


and
screw soccer.

[Edgy MD]

Nah, it never worked that way with the Dodgers, Yankees and Giants. This is America! You should be able to call yourself whatever you want!

But yeah, I don't think a belief in the scarcity of talent should lead to rationing. And we're not necessarily talking about increasing the number of MLB clubs. With the blessed fall of the anti-trust exemption regime should come the end of affiliation in the sense that we know it today, and hopefully lead to a system of promotion and relegation, where lesser division clubs fight for their own glory and that of their fans and localities, instead of sublimating their interests in favor of those of the parent club.

Young Trenton fans shouldn't be growing up wondering when the players on their team are going to be snatched by the Yankees. They should be growing up dreaming of their team beating the snot out of the Yankees. America!

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Pro/Rel now!

[Guest d'Kong76]

Edgy MD wrote: This is America! You should be able to call yourself whatever you want!

You can call me not buying it, but we've been through this
with the beloved Brooklyn Nets.

[Edgy MD]

And the hapless Knicks weren't forced to change their name oh no.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I hate days when the Corona Casanovas are off.

[Gwreck]

The London comparison is flawed because of the relative popularity of soccer there compared to everything else.

New York does have 9 major professional teams. Call it 11 if you want to include the soccer teams.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Pro/Rel now!

Oh, God, I'd love this.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I wouldn't. I could easily see the Mets spending 8 to 10 years in AAA. It would be an interesting setup if I was an impartial observer.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Changing American baseball to be more like English football is
an absurd dream to me. I was told earlier in this thread, this is
America. That's right, not bloody England.

[Edgy MD]

Gwreck wrote: The London comparison is flawed because of the relative popularity of soccer there compared to everything else.

Chicken/egg. If we allow the billionaires to artificially control the proliferation of professional baseball, of course it's going to artificially control the popularity, too, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[Edgy MD]

d'Kong76 wrote: Changing American baseball to be more like English football is an absurd dream to me. I was told earlier in this thread, this is America. That's right, not bloody England.

Yes, it's America, from where we spread the gospel of free markets. But we paradoxically run our sports leagues as cartels � presuming to control which consumers get access to major league ball, which pro-players are allowed to move to which teams, and which amateur players are allowed to begin their career, most of them getting chicken feed and they better like it.

We believe it hurts both commerce and culture to let other industries operate this way, enriches the very few while gouging the consumer and cheating the entrepreneur, but in baseball, we accept it, because that's the way it was set up. But it's important to remember, that's the way it was set up in the Gilded Age � an era defined by robber barons, the greatest monopolies the country has ever known, gross exploitation, and deep social problems. The system we have is an outmoded vestige. To say it belongs in a museum is to understate it. It belongs in a very unpleasant museum.

[Ceetar]

Gwreck wrote: The London comparison is flawed because of the relative popularity of soccer there compared to everything else. New York does have 9 major professional teams. Call it 11 if you want to include the soccer teams.

I don't. Might include the WNBA though.



Pro/reg would probably be a disaster. And I hate the concept anyway. Even if there was a time that free expansion of MLB outside of it's monopoly would've ingrained it into culture like soccer in other countries, that time is past. I think in Baseball today it'd diminish dedicated fanbases. Sure, there will always be a core, but it'd be smaller. Many people, probably me included, would find a 'pro' team to root for if the Mets got relegated. That might be fine at first, like having an AL team, but what two years down the road when I've fallen in love with the new team and players and their story and the Mets get promoted again and I'm not as attached?

[Benjamin Grimm]

If the Mets got sent down to AAA, I wouldn't find another team to root for, I'd just stop paying attention. It might take a year or so, but they'd totally lose me, and probably would never get me back.

[Edgy MD]

It wouldn't be AAA. And I don't expect the Mets would be relegated. Because they're awesome. And they have me supporting them.

But really, the idea of creating a fair and just system is to consider it not merely by guessing how it would affect us � for we have certainly been disproportionately blessed � but by how it would affect all members of society ... which would have a huge influence on how it would affect us.

[batmagadanleadoff]

In light of your post, one might also reason that it's fitting that baseball continues to operate as a monopoly all these years later. After all, none of this has changed much:

Edgy MD wrote: ... it's important to remember, that's the way [baseball] was set up in the Gilded Age � an era defined by robber barons, the greatest monopolies the country has ever known, gross exploitation, and deep social problems.

Well, maybe we're doing a better job of reigning in monopolies, so long as they're not professional sports leagues. But as to the rest of that ... it's just as bad as it ever was.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: It wouldn't be AAA. And I don't expect the Mets would be relegated. Because they're awesome. And they have me supporting them. But really, the idea of creating a fair and just system is to consider it not merely by guessing how it would affect us � for we have certainly been disproportionately blessed � but by how it would affect all members of society ... which would have a huge influence on how it would affect us.

I expect there's probably a way to create a fair and just system that doesn't include the possibility of a team dropping out of the major leagues.

[Edgy MD]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Edgy MD wrote: It wouldn't be AAA. And I don't expect the Mets would be relegated. Because they're awesome. And they have me supporting them. But really, the idea of creating a fair and just system is to consider it not merely by guessing how it would affect us � for we have certainly been disproportionately blessed � but by how it would affect all members of society ... which would have a huge influence on how it would affect us. I expect there's probably a way to create a fair and just system that doesn't include the possibility of a team dropping out of the major leagues.

I notice that you're not really thinking like a winner, here.

[Benjamin Grimm]

In 45 years as a Mets fan, I've seen quite a bit of losing!

[Guest d'Kong76]

Edgy MD wrote: Yes, it's America, from where we spread the gospel of free markets. But we paradoxically run our sports leagues as cartels � presuming to control which consumers get access to major league ball, which pro-players are allowed to move to which teams, and which amateur players are allowed to begin their career, most of them getting chicken feed and they better like it.

Anyone can access major league baseball. Pro-players sign contracts and have
an intricately negotiated agreement and can strike, amatuer players begin when
they make a the team (it's frickin' sports, Edge), and most minor league players
aren't poor.The players have the most powerful union in the country.

We believe it hurts both commerce and culture to let other industries operate this way, enriches the very few while gouging the consumer and cheating the entrepreneur, but in baseball, we accept it, because that's the way it was set up. But it's important to remember, that's the way it was set up in the Gilded Age � an era defined by robber barons, the greatest monopolies the country has ever known, gross exploitation, and deep social problems. The system we have is an outmoded vestige. To say it belongs in a museum is to understate it. It belongs in a very unpleasant museum.

Hard to beleive you feel so strongly about all those things and still devote so
much love and time to such a vile picture you painted from your podium.

[Edgy MD]

d'Kong76 wrote: Anyone can access major league baseball.

I want to start a team in Boise. I am unallowed to sign Max Scherzer no matter how much money I give him. If I even begin to negotiate with him, it's made clear to him and everybody else that they will never play big league ball again. Boise fans can go get wet. The backlash would be even more vicious if I started my team in Park Slope.

d'Kong76 wrote: Pro-players sign contracts and have an intricately negotiated agreement and can strike,

Under terms that are anathema to the rest of US employment law.

d'Kong76 wrote: amatuer players begin when they make a the team

Amateur players begin their pro careers by being told they'll play for who the industry wants them to play for, no matter what their preference.

d'Kong76 wrote: and most minor league players aren't poor.

Until a minor league player is placed on a 40-man roster, monthly salaries are $1150 for the short season teams, $1300 for low A and $1500 for high A. For players repeating a year at the same level, the salary goes up $50 each year. For AA, the monthly salary is $1700 and it goes up $100 per month for subsequent years. For AAA, the monthly salary is $2150 per month and it goes up to $2400 the second year and $2700 the third year. (source)

d'Kong76 wrote: The players have the most powerful union in the country.

Minor league players aren't allowed in the union.

d'Kong76 wrote: Hard to beleive you feel so strongly about all those things and still devote so much love and time to such a vile picture you painted from your podium.

I don't believe I'm on a podium, but rather just responding in the natural course of the conversation. I like the game, but disagree with the system of the industry and its captains. I take that a lot of folks here dislike the captains far more than I do, but still pursue the joys of the game.

Montreal should have a team that some guy in an office in New York can't just decide will cease to exist.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I looked up the minor league salary stories too and was just going
to withdraw or amend that comment. However, to be fair, these are
young men who if were in college (for example) they'd be struggling to
make ends meet anyway unless their parents can afford to float their boat.

[Guest d'Kong76]

As for the other stuff, I'm aware of all of it but really don't care. It's
baseball. I guess I should of just stayed out of it.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Oh, and god save the queen.

[Edgy MD]

d'Kong76 wrote: I looked up the minor league salary stories too and was just going to withdraw or amend that comment. However, to be fair, these are young men who if were in college (for example) they'd be struggling to make ends meet anyway unless their parents can afford to float their boat.

Sure, it ain't much, but neither is it nothing. But it sure isn't based on what the market will bear.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I'd be more than happy to go play A ball for $1,000/month...
where do I sign?

[Guest d'Kong76]

Also, there are plenty of other industries/trades where young people work for
little or nothing as apprentices/interns to get their foot in the door and a chance
for advancement.