IGT 4/30/13: A Fresh Start (Mets @ Marlins)

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Let's get the taste of that one out of our mouths right away. Hefner, hugh have to suck it up and go deep.

[Ceetar]

Swan Swan H wrote: Let's get the taste of that one out of our mouths right away. Hefner, hugh have to suck it up and go deep.

and why not, we're not protecting Hefner for decades of Mets service, use him up and spit him out!

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Ceetar wrote: Swan Swan H wrote: Let's get the taste of that one out of our mouths right away. Hefner, hugh have to suck it up and go deep. and why not, we're not protecting Hefner for decades of Mets service, use him up and spit him out!

I don"t think he has a snowball's chance of going 9, but he can't get knocked out early. Swallow hard and get the job done.

[metirish]

We finished April 2012 with 13 wins and 10 losses

So far we are at 10 wins and 14 losses.

Need to win tonight.

[Frayed Knot]

I don"t think he has a snowball's chance of going 9, but he can't get knocked out early. Swallow hard and get the job done

On the other hand, it's not like Atchison, Carson, Hawkins, and Lyon threw a lot of pitches last night/this morning--just 2, 3, 6, and 8 respectively--so they should all be quite ready, willing, and able.

Those totals, btw, make up just a minute portion of the total number pitches in the game: 512


You figure Parnell (35), Familia (31), & Rice (17 last night plus work on Sat & Sun) get the day off, as do Koehler (3 innings/50 pitches) and Rauch (3 & 60) from the other side.
Ramos (17), Webb (10) and the unused Dunn are probably available with Qualls (26) and Cichek (17 coming off 1 inning/14 pitches on Sunday) questionable depending on necessity.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I remember when there were "long relievers" who might be able to go four or five innings in an extra-inning game. What ever happened to the Pat Mahomes or Tom Gormans of the world? Why do you now have to change pitchers every inning or two, even in an extra inning game?

[metirish]

Glendon Rusch comes to mind....more recently Darren Oliver....

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I remember when there were "long relievers" who might be able to go four or five innings in an extra-inning game. What ever happened to the Pat Mahomes or Tom Gormans of the world? Why do you now have to change pitchers every inning or two, even in an extra inning game?

Because most of the time you _don't_ use those guys. Why carry the 25th man that's only pitching in blowouts or if the game happens to go 15? If he's good enough to use regularly, you're going to find him innings to pitch regularly, and if he's just eating space to save waste innings..

part of it's that it's hard to keep your arm strength up for 4-5 innings, healthily anyway, without actually pitching. People worry about over-extending pitchers these days, and the idea of having this sacrificial lamb has fallen by the wayside somewhat.

I mean, Familia probably could've gone longer for instance. It's not like he's not accustomed in his career to doing so, but you're just not going to risk it with him.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Is Harvey pitching tonight?

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Because most of the time you _don't_ use those guys. Why carry the 25th man that's only pitching in blowouts or if the game happens to go 15? If he's good enough to use regularly, you're going to find him innings to pitch regularly, and if he's just eating space to save waste innings..

Terry Leach appeared in 52 games in 1988. Darren Oliver in 45 games in 2006. Pat Mahomes appeared in 92 games between 1999 and 2000. These appearances covered a large amount of innings, which served the team. The were not "eating space to save waste innings" (not sure what that means but still), but rather held a little bit more in reserve than other pitchers to be used when a long outing or emergency start might crop up, sparing perhaps several pitchers who maybe are more effective but trained for shorter appearances, and are used with less reserve.

There was a pretty demonstrable benefit.

[Edgy MD]

And I thought that, by Hefner "going deep," we were referring to his batting acumen.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Technically, unless a particular guy is making 81-plus appearances in a season, you're not using anyone "most of the time."

It seems like we've got a bunch of starters in the organization who don't quite have major-league starter potential... the problem is, instead of buoying the back of the pen, they're starting games like tonight.

[Edgy MD]

There's little reason Jeurys can't be developed as a multiple-inning guy.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: Because most of the time you _don't_ use those guys. Why carry the 25th man that's only pitching in blowouts or if the game happens to go 15? If he's good enough to use regularly, you're going to find him innings to pitch regularly, and if he's just eating space to save waste innings.. Terry Leach appeared in 52 games in 1988. Darren Oliver in 45 games in 2006. Pat Mahomes appeared in 92 games between 1999 and 2000. These appearances covered a large amount of innings, which served the team. The were not "eating space to save waste innings" (not sure what that means but still), but rather held a little bit more in reserve than other pitchers to be used when a long outing or emergency start might crop up, sparing perhaps several pitchers who maybe are more effective but trained for shorter appearances, and are used with less reserve. There was a pretty demonstrable benefit.

There's some truth to what cee sez. Starting pitchers pitch less innings these days. So relievers, it follows, pitch more frequently. And so the trend is to stock the rosters with shorter relievers who can pitch on more days, if not more innings. Hence, the lack of longer relievers, at least relative to the way things used to be 15 or 20 years ago and before that.

[Edgy MD]

Having starters pitch fewer innings, and having relievers pitch fewer innings, screws you at two ends, leaving a mushy middle where lesser pitchers get a disproportionate share of high-leverage innings compared to prior years, to say nothing of a less versatile roster.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Having starters pitch fewer innings, and having relievers pitch fewer innings, screws you at two ends, leaving a mushy middle where lesser pitchers get a disproportionate share of high-leverage innings compared to prior years, to say nothing of a less versaitle roste.r

Chances are a 'quality' reliever is going to get more innings pitching his specialized one inning than being held in reserve. You don't want to fall into the backup catcher scenario where you're afraid to use you're 7th reliever because tomorrow might go extras. Because then you have a 6-man pen and are overworking those guys.

Sure, it'd be nice to have a guy that's okay going 5 innings in a pinch, but if you're using him an inning at a time, or two here and there, chances are either his arm strength isn't there to be effective for long relief, or he's been working extra on the side to maintain arm strength and is probably pitching most of the games you use him in, tired.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Chances are a 'quality' reliever is going to get more innings pitching his specialized one inning than being held in reserve.

I'm not sure what this means. But if it's something close to what I think it means, it sounds like a false choice. Rich Gossage pitched 99 innings in 1980. Bruce Sutter pitched 102 innings. Craig Kimbrel pitched 62 and Jim Johnson 68 in 2012.

You don't want to fall into the backup catcher scenario where you're afraid to use you're 7th reliever because tomorrow might go extras.

I'm not sure I or anyone has proposed any scenario that leads to a backup catcher pitching because I'm afraid to use a seventh reliever. That would be intensely stupid.

Because then you have a 6-man pen and are overworking those guys.

The scenario I propose allows for longer outings but fewer appearances by the typical reliever, which I think is, in many ways the real issue.

Sure, it'd be nice to have a guy that's okay going 5 innings in a pinch, but if you're using him an inning at a time, or two here and there, chances are either his arm strength isn't there to be effective for long relief, or he's been working extra on the side to maintain arm strength and is probably pitching most of the games you use him in, tired.

It's quite simple really. Very rarely would such a man get five innings. Twice a year, maybe, but his 3-4 inning appearances are important too. Maybe he gets one of those every 10-15 days. He gets 2-3 shorter appearances in between. And it saves higher-leverage specialists work. It's all part of bullpen management. But it was routinely done. These animals do exist. They come up from AAA as starters, capable of putting in a starter's workload but there isn't a slot for them.

Many fine starting pitchers worked their way into the rotation having served their apprenticeship as the spot starter/mopup guy. It's got a proud history.

I'm not sure what exactly you're contending.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Many fine starting pitchers worked their way into the rotation having served their apprenticeship as the spot starter/mopup guy. It's got a proud history. I'm not sure what exactly you're contending.

Sure. but that's few and far between. those are the exceptions. Goose Gossage was Hall of Famer.

What i'm contending is that often the 7th guy in the bullpen sucks. Even if you're looking for a specific usage scenario, he's still going to suck. The guy that you don't want to pitch too many innings or is 'breaking in' is often going to just dive in. They either monitor the innings in the minors, or he's needed to make starts. fine line to find the usage case inbetween. And in a lot of these cases, they're best used in other ways. And no 'best usage' case ever works out anyway. You may want to try to get him in games, but you may get a week where starters pitch and it's all the high-leverage guys.

Anyway, it's simple. Use the best relievers as much as possible. Walk the line between burning them out and under using them. (In our case, Parnell. more Parnell. Keep pitching Parnell. If it's Friday and you're off Monday and Parnell is rested, assume he's pitching every ninth inning as long as the Mets are within 4. )

And hell, the other guys? the one-offers? BURN THEM OUT. If Brandon Lyon is pitching well? Throw him out there until Brian Cashman is threatening to sue for overuse. Milk every last freaking quality inning out of the guys throwing well. Because sooner or later they'll suck again and you can rest them then.

[G-Fafif]

Yes, Wright; no Stanton.

[u:2wq9ii4p]Mets [/u:2wq9ii4p]
Mike Baxter, rf
Ruben Tejada, ss
David Wright, 3b
Lucas Duda, lf
Daniel Murphy, 2b
Ike Davis, 1b
Anthony Recker, c
Juan Lagares, cf
Jeremy Hefner, rhp

[u:2wq9ii4p]Marlins[/u:2wq9ii4p]
Juan Pierre, lf
Donovan Solano, 2b
Placido Polanco, 3b
Greg Dobbs, 1b
Justin Ruggiano, cf
Marcell Ozuna, rf
Miguel Olivo, c
Nick Green, ss
Kevin Slowey, rhp

[Ceetar]

my choice* outfield.

*from the available options.

[ashie62]

The Mets are starting Hefner because they don't have anyone better.

[Zvon]

[ashie62]

Nice stadium Bob is at..

[ashie62]

4th inning..

no score..

Later..

[Zvon]

Ashie62 wrote: Nice stadium Bob is at..

The best.

Just settling in. Looks like I haven't missed much. Hearing the tail end of a of conversation K&G were having I wish I heard more of that, about pitchers today as opposed to the past. Missed most of that

[batmagadanleadoff]

Is Harvey pitching tonight?

[Edgy MD]

Thing about Marlins games. In the first inning or two, you can spot a guy on TV. "Hey, look at that guy with the handlebar mustache. Hey look at that guy with the Yankee jersey. Hey, who's the skinny tracksuit kid?"

But the crowd is so sparse, once you fixate on that guy, you spot him all night, from three or four different camera angles.

[Zvon]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Is Harvey pitching tonight?

http://www.hark.com/reservoir-dogs/har-de-fucking-har

[batmagadanleadoff]

Zvon wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Is Harvey pitching tonight? http://www.hark.com/reservoir-dogs/har-de-fucking-har

Manchurian Harvey

[Edgy MD]

Anybody want to talk about the game?

Mets go up 1-0, and hopefully won't spend the rest of the game trying to make that run stand.